Large Families

[Czerny88]

I'm trying to understand the psychology behind people having large families (by which I mean anything over three children, I guess). NB I'm thinking about people in the 21st century, in the West, with access to contraception and low infant mortality, who don't belong to a culture where it is particularly encouraged to have a large number of children, such as Judaism. And obviously there are circumstances such as multiple births which don't apply.

My visceral feeling is that it is often wrong on many levels. In attempting to enunciate why, I would say people should not have more children than they can afford, than they have time to care for, than can fit comfortably in their living accommodation.

And even in the case where the parents are very wealthy, have a huge house and extra support such as a nanny, there is still the hugely important issue of over-population. It feels like we are at capacity already, without room to increase the population by the amount would result by every couple having even three children.

I'm trying not to be too goady or right-wing, and I have personal reasons for the way I feel (I am involuntarily childless) so please don't be too harsh, but it's something I struggle with ideologically as well as emotionally.

So... AIBU to think that people should be more responsible about how many children they produce and not act solely on their own desires regardless of the potential effects on others? Or is that an unrealistic, draconian expectation?

The fact remains that no person is required to justify the existence of their children, irrespective of number.

I know. And still, OP continues to forcibly tether you to this thread and demand explanations. You must be furious.

For a minority of families I have observed it's a status symbol. Look at us we both have big jobs and lots of Dc. An alpha type thing.

This is definitely a thing amongst the London elite, although the ones I've seen seem to feature a SAHM. If you can afford to replicate all the amenities of a suburban lifestyle in Zone 1 e.g. a 6/7 bedroom house, enormous car, school fees x 5, etc, then your salary is rather transparently huge.

These people would have almost certainly been living in the Home Counties 20 years ago.

Haven't read the whole thread, just parts. But those who are talking about "over population"...maybe think of moving away from crowded cities! More than plenty space in Scotland in rural locations. The word "crowded" is laughable!

"I know. And still, OP continues to forcibly tether you to this thread and demand explanations. You must be furious."

Indeed it is a bind to be the voice of reason amongst the arrogance and entitlement.... But somebody has to do it.
Imagine if I actually left you to labour under the assumption that other people owe you an explanation.

Let's just agree that you can thank me later

This is definitely a thing amongst the London elite, although the ones I've seen seem to feature a SAHM.

Jamie and Jools Oliver are a high profile example.

On overpopulation, what I remember from a very interesting TV documentary:-

1. Everywhere except poor parts of India and Africa people are breeding at replacement rate or below.
2. Breeding rates drop to these low levels as soon as people's income rises above subsistence level, so these places will come into line with the rest of the world over the next few decades.
3. The earth has already reached "peak child", the number of children born per year is not increasing.
4. The reason that population will continue to increase for the next few decades is because people are not dying as fast as they used to, lifespans in poorer countries are catching up with richer ones.
5. Some time in the 21st century, when the death rate is the same everywhere, the global human population will have stabilised. (I think global population will stabilise at 11 billion, as opposed to 7 people alive billion now, but memory may be wrong.)
6. Any increase in population between now and then will be in aforementioned Indian/African populations.

Totally agree with Curry, I don't recognise the two bigs jobs loads of DC model but come across lots of wealthy families with lots of children, a SAHM and often a nanny as well.

So anyone having more kids for benefits is incredibly thick tbh, as they get nothing extra per child
There are a lot of families who the benefit cap doesn't apply to, such as when one of the adults in the household is claiming ESA (Support) or when one of the adults in the household is claiming Working Tax Credits.

Oh Theoretician, don't give them the actual facts! How will the feel so smug about their perfect 1.8 families if they actually knew the truth about the fact that we aren't overpopulated?

My country is still at half the level of population before the english killed them or forced them to emigrate a major shift, I think we are well able to handle a few large families....

But those who are talking about "over population"...maybe think of moving away from crowded cities! More than plenty space in Scotland in rural locations. The word "crowded" is laughable!

Yeah. Coz of all them well paid jobs going in rural Scotland!

I'm very comfortable thanks. I very much doubt much of your snot nosed brats will fund my retirement and continue to drain the system,

Yes, but one of them will most definitely be wiping your wrinkly arse , lucky for you.

We are all in a society that we have very little choice about. This country in particular is very expensive, we say ' don't have more than you can afford' and tell people who have natural desires to ignore those so the very rich that run this society don't have to 'provide for them' while the poor still run the fucking societies, wipe their arses, serve their food. It's a bit shit isn't it?

You live in London, don't you dare have a child as you couldn't possibly afford a nice house for it.

It's ridiculous.

As for destroying the planet, again people are no more naturally destructive than any other animal, there is plenty of space.

It's a society we are all apart of but can't stop that is destroying the environment. You want to get angry?Get angry at the government and the business it panders to who are destroying this world and selling shit people don't need and demanding we live in certain ways then getting annoyed when we can't afford to live that way.

If a woman wants to have six kids and go live off grid, she can't. She legally can't just go and live on land because someone owns it. The answer to that is not to judge the woman for her natural desire to have children but the society that has made it impossible to do so in a sustainable way

I'm very comfortable thanks. I very much doubt much of your snot nosed brats will fund my retirement and continue to drain the system
That would be many snot nosed brats, not much. And they will be doing a lot for your old age.

Hmm

I do feel slightly about large families - simply because I cannot understand how any parents have the time and energy to look after more than 3 kids. I have 2 and that pushes my limits a lot of the time.

However, perhaps their kids are easier or better behaved than mine (probably). Perhaps they are naturally better at being parents (quite likely). Perhaps they have lots of extra hands (family members, au pairs). Perhaps they have large age gaps, so the bigger ones are more self sufficient and can help out.

I will go as far as saying - nobody should have more children than they can provide with a good amount of adult attention and a reasonable level of material comfort. That will vary from family to family.

or when one of the adults in the household is claiming Working Tax Credits.

Hmm. I didn't know this was true. I did know disability benefits exempt you from the benefit cap though (as they should)

Like people fail to see how large families have the time for many kids, maybe its because we aren't sitting on mn all day being a load of judgemental assholes

Hey, some of us have large(r) families and still find some time to be judgemental assholes on MN, thanks very much!

Hmm. I didn't know this was true
According to the Government website - "You’re not affected by the cap if anyone in your household qualifies for Working Tax Credit"

www.gov.uk/benefit-cap/benefits-included-in-the-cap

Fluffy to be fair to Chihuahua (though I don't know why I care overmuch since she seems to not be overly concerned about being fair to anyone else ), I believe "of" is a typo there. Read it as "if" instead. I do that all the time. Damn o and i next to each other on the keyboard!

Thanks September. They are an interesting bunch for sure! :o

I don't get why people get so het up about it. CTFD, people. I think the same of people with lots of children who talk about the childless "never knowing true love" as I do people referring to snot nosed brats and complaining about children everywhere. If you're secure in your own choices, just let that be enough.

I've got three kids. I'll probably have more. You can think what you like. I don't have time to give anyone's opinion of my life much headspace...as I said I've got three kids :o

I know someone who is childless by choice. Great, I don't give a shit. (I know lots of people who are actually but I'm particularly thinking of her.) She complains on her FB about children at least once a week. Little things like how she was tired on the train and there was a toddler who wouldn't stop saying "choo choo" Literally every time she goes checks in at a restaurant there will be a follow up complaint that there was a child there. She honestly seems to believe that no one under the age of 15 or so should be anywhere in public besides school or a theme park or something, I swear. And I just always think...what, actually, is her problem? Why does the mere sight of children enrage her?

And the same with people who seem upset that anyone chooses not to have children. Do they think that harms their own kids somehow? What?

Different people have different experiences and circumstances and that leads to different lives and choices. It's okay. Really.

I think it's really odd to slate a decision because you don't understand it. I don't understand why someone would go out and get so drunk they can't remember anything, but I'm happy for them to do it - despite the impacts it has on their safety and health and often the state of our town. I don't understand why someone would go on five holidays a year to the same place, but I'm happy for them to do it - despite the ecological damage.

There are a lot of decisions I don't get that have very slight negative impacts on the world (and sometimes my life), but I don't feel a right to criticise those people and tell them they're the wrong decisions. I just accept that they want different things and have different values. It's about tolerance. You don't HAVE to understand why I have a big family, but that isn't a reason to disrespect the decision.

I see we've moved on to having a swipe at people whose free and reasonable choice is based on their religious beliefs.
No, as I said in my OP, "I'm thinking about people who don't belong to a culture where it is particularly encouraged to have a large number of children..." [As someone mentioned, I should have said Orthodox Judaism.]

Are you suggesting that children are equivalent to cars and cats now, OP?
Only inasmuch as they both take up space and use resources. But presumably you'd have us believe that your high-earning children defy the laws of physics, chemistry and biology. (Well if you're going to label me a "goady fucker" I may as well live up to it.)

Because I have children, a car and a cat, and I have noticed a really big difference between the children and the other two.
But not between the car and the cat? [This is the sort of willful misinterpretation you keep applying to my posts.]

I also find it quite interesting that in the UK having children is seen very much as a personal lifestyle choice (only have them if you can afford them, 'why should my taxes pay for your kids attitude etc), whereas other European societies view them more as a national resource and actually try to encourage people to have them. Much larger child benefits, better maternity pay, money to stay at home with them, state funded nursery care etc. Because they are seen as the future of the nation and the economy.

This. I really don't get it.

Your question is legitimate op and I don't know why you're getting so many aggressive, stupid and irrelevant replies! The few replies that actually answered your question made for interesting reading though.

I honestly think that the natural urge to reproduce (no matter if you can afford it financially or emotionally) is overwhelming in some people.

I want to know the process for people who decide kit to have any children.
Is that OK or can I be judged because I chose to have 4 children?
I get asked if any were an accident and people are suprised that they are all with the same dad. My body, my life my choice.I can feed them, clothe them house them so why is it anyone else's business?
Also the world is not overcrowded we just need to use our resources in a smarter way.
BTW family sizes are getting smaller so bigger families are rarer than ever.

We stopped at 3 children. For us the main reason was that we want to be as hands on as possible and we couldn't see how we could manage more children and not have to delegate much of the daily grind to others.

We are very lucky in that we could probably afford 30 kids if we wanted and have staff for most household tasks but we both feel very strongly that we don't want a nanny changing the nappies or a driver doing the school run. We want to do that stuff ourselves ( it just helps a lot when you've got someone else to do the dishes and hoovering). We borne felt that more children would see us having to either in ourselves ragged or delegate and neither option was appealing.

Happy with our choices but totally understand if others have different reasoning and end up making different choices - that's the joy of living in a free society.

I honestly think you come across as bitter in your post op. People's choices are of no concern to you unless something they do directly has a negative affect on your life. Your inability to have children is your problem not anyone else's. I chose to have my 4 children because I could love, provide and raise them. No state benefits hubby works to provide for us and I get to stay home and bring them up! I have 2 boys close in age an 8 year gap then 2 girls a year apart.
My OH is adopted and having a large family was important to him as he wanted to give to his children what he felt he never got himself, love stability and a sense of belonging.
As for over population unless you live in China or India it's not really a massive issue!