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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

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Large Families

686 replies

Czerny88 · 10/09/2016 17:56

I'm trying to understand the psychology behind people having large families (by which I mean anything over three children, I guess). NB I'm thinking about people in the 21st century, in the West, with access to contraception and low infant mortality, who don't belong to a culture where it is particularly encouraged to have a large number of children, such as Judaism. And obviously there are circumstances such as multiple births which don't apply.

My visceral feeling is that it is often wrong on many levels. In attempting to enunciate why, I would say people should not have more children than they can afford, than they have time to care for, than can fit comfortably in their living accommodation.

And even in the case where the parents are very wealthy, have a huge house and extra support such as a nanny, there is still the hugely important issue of over-population. It feels like we are at capacity already, without room to increase the population by the amount would result by every couple having even three children.

I'm trying not to be too goady or right-wing, and I have personal reasons for the way I feel (I am involuntarily childless) so please don't be too harsh, but it's something I struggle with ideologically as well as emotionally.

So... AIBU to think that people should be more responsible about how many children they produce and not act solely on their own desires regardless of the potential effects on others? Or is that an unrealistic, draconian expectation?

OP posts:
Dogcatred · 11/09/2016 07:03

Yes, it' tends to be if you are a family who believe in self reliance or not. we do, as to whether or not your children are likely to be a burden on the state. My girls (the oldest) earn over or almost up to £100k already. They pay a huge amount of tax as do I. Also if you've paid school fees for them as I have that tends to mean it is likely they will earn more and be a life long net giver into the tax system rather than a net taker. Also we are feminist so our women carry on working full time (and our men) when babies come to ensure equality within relationships so again that tends to mean our female children are not unpaid at any stage either from having had a child themselves.

miserablesod · 11/09/2016 07:04

I have many children and i work hard to provide for them. When i start asking people to babysit/provide for them then they can have a say or be judgemental. Until then i give the two fingers because i give no fucks what other people think about my decisions. Smile

Brokenbiscuit · 11/09/2016 07:28

I have one DC ( secondary infertility) and I am very happy with that. I really don't like it when others feel the need to judge the size of my family. Consequently, I will avoid judging the size of other people's families.

I think you have a point in saying that people should think carefully about whether they should have kids that they can't afford, because that could impact negatively on the kids that they already have. Having said that, life isn't always that simple and straightforward, is it?

The two largest families I know have 7 kids and 11 kids respectively. Both had/have huge houses and sent all their kids to private schools, so no issues with finances there. I would say that there have been occasions when the parents may not have had the time or energy to be as supportive as they might have been if they had fewer children, but this has been balanced to some extent by the existence of a very supportive network of siblings. My friend who grew up as one of 11 is generally quite positive about her large family, though I note that she has no children of her own and none of her siblings (so far) have had more than two.

I think it's a very personal thing. Yes, there are environmental consequences, but that applies to so much of what we do - can any of us really judge others on that point?

I think the real issue here, OP, is that it must be incredibly hard to see people with lots of children when you are unable to have even one of your own. I get that.Flowers

kidsandcatseverywhere · 11/09/2016 07:43

We have 6 children between 10 months and 11 years old. I couldn't really say why we planned this but we always talked about having 6. Dh has had a vasectomy now our family of six is complete. It's just how we planned life.

I love life at the moment, I feel like things are just how I imagined life. Dh works I am a sahm - we home educate some of the children so this is a must for me.

I am always extremely busy I get up and the day is just full on until bedtime which a mix of housework, childcare, trips and home ed stuff. I am obsessed with family and home keeping, I spend my free time watching you tube videos on home ed and grocery hauls for large families (sad aren't I!)Grin.

I had pnd after one of my children and this is the only time i have really seriously struggled but realistically this could have happened with one child.

However, I know a lot of large families most cope fine but some are chaotic and dysfunctional . I would say that in those families the difference is that mum (and it could be dad I know but in all the families I know dad works long hours and mum is primary care giver) treats the "work" of a large family as a nuisance - I know one woman who constantly needs breaks during the day and tries to watch tv etc etc and things fall apart because she just has no pride in what she does.

As to the question of population - tbh no I didn't consider it, we live in a quiet area of the north west - there is no overcrowding . The children who do go to school are in small classes (of between 13 and 19 children) because there simply isn't a demand for places. You can get s same day gp appointment .
So I just never really thought about population - selfish yes but that's how it is!

kidsandcatseverywhere · 11/09/2016 07:45

Forgot about time one to one - they do have time one to one especially with the home ed as it opens up the day so much BUT of course if there was one child they would had more. I think there are benefits to a largefamily which outweigh the negatives though .

BendydickCuminsnatch · 11/09/2016 07:58

Why are people saying 3 or 4 is fine? Surely if you're going to have this argument you should say anything over 2 is bad and irresponsible? My parents always said they had 2 because it's reasonable to just replace yourselves (the parents) on this planet.

I have 1 at the moment and definitely want 2 more, maybe 3. No reason really. Just do.

LeaveMyWingsBehindMe · 11/09/2016 08:05

People seem to be focusing on finite resources and overcrowding of the planet though. And about the risks to our economy and our society posed by having a declining birth rate and a burgeoning elderly population.

There are concerns about those things of course, particularly as many of the families who have very high birth rates are also often the families who statistically tend to have higher levels of social, economic and educational disadvantage and therefore for the next couple of generations at least, will probably need to take more out of the pot than they are able to put in. I do wonder if economically the welfare state is sustainable. More and more people are choosing to have just one child with maybe a second as an indulgence if they think they can afford it because they are having to work harder and longer for less reward. Their children are already in full time childcare just so they can both work to meet the rent/mortgage. A large family simply isn't an option most responsible, financially self sufficient people can dream of these days. They are having to get real and cut their cloth accordingly.

So it does frankly really piss them off to see others having six, seven or more children they can't support or house without quite a bit of financial input from the state and expecting the taxpayer, i.e., the very people I've just talked about, to take up the slack for them so that their children don't need to live in poverty or disadvantage. And adding insult to injury by being all whiny and entitled when the HA doesn't have a bigger house available or when benefits are capped. You want six or eight kids then they are your responsibility not mine or anyone else's and if you are struggling and they are going without then that's a direct result of your decisions and lack of personal responsibility, not mine or anyone else's.

The irony is that the way our benefits system is set up, you could be an unemployed parent/s who has chosen to keep adding to your family knowing damn well you are either single and/or unemployed or working part time on NMW and your eight children are probably not going without any more than a full time working couple on an average wage with two children are, because when you are dependent on benefits to a large degree, the children themselves become cash cows, your route to a bigger better house and a means to an end.

But for me the selfishness and irresponsibility of adults choosing to have too many children ( by which I mean six, seven or more, I don't consider four or five to be particularly excessive so long as you can afford them) is more about what goes on in the family home itself.

I know it can be a hard and slog and there are frequently not enough hours in the day bringing up just three children, in a spacious house with a comfortable income. The thought of having double or even triple the number of kids, with less space and less money and less time for them horrifies me. No-one can do a job really well when they spread themselves too thin - why do we think parenting should be any different? Okay, some people are super organized, superhuman forces of nature but most of us are not. There are limits to our capability and endurance and when we take on too much someone suffers.

As a SAHM it seemed there was never a day when someone didn't need something from me that was very important at that moment, whether it was the dentists, getting dog poo of their shoes, making meals, finding time to BF, taking to ECAs and picking up again,, watching an assembly at school, parent teacher consultations, nursing them when they were poorly, settling them when they woke n the night, helping with homework, doing nightly reading practice, reading them a bedtime story, supervising bath time, taking them to a birthday party, hosting a play date, or rushing to turn around a sports kit in super quick time because there is a match after school tomorrow and it got covered in mud today. The match of course I would then be expected to stand and watch, with my other bored kids in tow. Then you have to deal with the tantrums, whether from a two year old or a hormonal shirty sixteen year old. Even with only three kids and no job (SAHM with working DH) there were times where I was on my knees with exhaustion (and a couple of bouts of PND) and just wanted to lock myself in a room and be alone, but you can't.

Or just having the time to sit and hold one of them and listen to them and only them and give them all of me for just half an hour now and then, without some other pressing priority or interruption from a sibling. That's what I meant by 1 on 1 time, it doesn't necessarily mean offloading the others in order to take each child out for the day alone. I'm not sure I ever felt the need to do that.

Then there's the issue of space and money. My children never had to share bedrooms. It's not the end of the world if they do, especially when they are fairly young but having to cram three or more children of mixed ages or sexes into a room where there is barely enough space for sufficient beds and no space for them to make their territory feel personal with other belongings of their choosing seems a bit of a crappy way to choose for your kids to have to live if you ask me.

And teenagers hate their space and privacy constantly invaded by younger siblings, it's stressful for them. Where do you go to study quietly? To take your friends and talk about stuff without a bunch of small kids earwigging or competing for attention? How do you watch what you want on TV without the little ones seeing things they probBly shouldn't? Every psychologist knows that overcrowding, constant noise from others and a lack of privacy and personal space can drive people demented with stress. That's what prisons are like.

Ask any teacher about the dynamics of a class and who inevitably gets the most attention and the least. Some children have much more assertive or needy personalities than others and they demand more attention. Some are troublemakers and bullies who need a watchful eye at all times. Some have issues or disabilities that require more of your attention/time. Some are the self sufficient copers and carers of this world; the ones you task with the job of looking after one of the needy children at break time while you have your coffee in peace. Sometimes they might feel insecure and in need of attention too but they don't show it because they've been conditioned not to and besides, they see you are busy tending to the empty vessels and the trouble makers and the ones with difficulties. Others are the underdogs who get pushed out, ignored or bullied. The bigger the class size and the fewer support staff you have, the harder it is to keep on top of who really needs your attention, as opposed to who is actually getting it.

I think the same is true of families. You simply cannot do for eight or ten what you can do for three. You can't.

Sleepovers and playdates get dismissed as an annoyance and an inconvenience. Birthday Parties go unattended and unhosted. Sporting prowess and talents get overlooked and unnurtured because no one has the time to run around to clubs and matches, or worse still, you expect other people with a regular amount of children to do the running around for you, because they have more time and more space in their car. Hmm There is always, even on a high income, less money and space and food to go around (unless you are single and on benefits, in which case there is more.)

And don't get me started on how I feel about bigger children (usually girls) WHO ARE STILL CHILDREN having to speed up or suspend their own childhoods in order to take on caring responsibilities for too many younger siblings because mum and dad can't cope day to day with what they've saddled themselves with.

Also, even if you dismiss all of the above, insist you are fine and cope marvellously, no one is disadvantaged by your choices, then your next child is born with profound disabilities or health problems that require enormous amounts of your time and enormous changes to the way the household is set up and the routine is run?

Or you suddenly become seriously and chronically unwell or disabled yourself and unable to cope with the day to day needs of your family? Or God forbid, you died? Those would be a tough things for children to cope with in a family of any size, but undoubtedly the more children you have, the more of a practical issue it becomes, particularly if you are a single parent with multiple fathers to your children. There's a fair chance your children would have to be split up and fostered fostered separately, or that the eldest child would have to take on the role as parent when they might still be barely adult themselves.

Alll anyone should want for their children is to be able to give them the best of ourselves. For DH and me that means not spreading out time, patience and resources too thinly just to scratch some continued biological itch, or because some religious leader told us to, or because it's cute to always have a baby around.

The children you already have deserve better than that.

Blackberryandapplejam · 11/09/2016 08:10

I stopped at two and was sterilised so there could be no more. Had mine young so they had grown up and were working (and both owned their own homes) before I turned 50.

I worked part time through their childhood, we had nice holidays and could afford nice things for them, driving lessons at 17, cars etc. We wouldn't have been able to do so if we had had more children because the money DH and I had earnt would have had to stretch further.

We didn't qualify for any benefits apart from child benefit which was universal when my children were growing up, and DH was a high rate tax payer.

I do believe you shouldn't have a large family if you will be relying on benefits and tax credits, I don't think it's what the benefit system was designed for.

Now my children are grown and flown, DH and I have time for ourselves and have time to do our own thing, it's the next stage in life for us.

AllieinWonderland · 11/09/2016 08:12

I am from a HUGE family (one of 10+) and I can honestly say I DID love it. I loved that if I got cross with one sibling there was always another to go to and moan to, or spend time with. I loved that, when my parents passed away, I had a huge support network - lots of other people knowing how I felt, and being able to talk about specific memories. I feel if I was only one of two, then there's the risk of not being close to them and subsequently not being able to share such feelings and comfort one another in the way my huge family was able to. I like the feeling of always having a sibling to talk to and ask advice from. And I just enjoyed being part of a big family, because even though I maybe didn't get as much attention from my parents I didn't need it - I got attention from my brothers and sisters, and we all learnt to really pitch in and look out for each other. (I am not saying you can't learn these things from a small family, merely explaining what my situation was like)

I would only have had three children (including one adopted), but like Elsa ended up with 5 not by choice. My DH has four from his previous marriage, and in my house are nine children. I love it, because it's like how I grew up, and I had a very happy childhood, and I feel all children do get the attention and love they need.

We also have sufficient money to do this and are not in an overpopulated area at all - the local schools are undersubscribed and might have to merge, and the local primary school just reduced its intake from 40 per year to 30. There are two currently unoccupied houses on our street. I don't think we're causing an issue, and also in out case we have a ratio of 4 parents to 8 children, plus one adopted so that makes it 6 parents to 9 children.

Every situation is different, and your posts do seem rather judgemental. I would not be happy with only one child in the house and would not have been happy to be only one child in the house, but I'm not going to have a problem with someone else choosing that.

treaclesoda · 11/09/2016 08:15

I think the need for privacy in the home is quite a new concept. Not saying that's a bad thing, just that it's new. When I was growing up, most of my friends shared bedrooms with a sibling. Even families of two children had the children share a room, leaving the third bedroom empty, because parents thought the children needed the company. When I had friends to the house. I wasn't allowed to take them into my bedroom, we had to stay in the living room with everyone else. And I don't think that was all that unusual either, I had friends whose houses I was in constantly yet I have no idea what the upstairs of their house looked like because we weren't allowed to go there.

Kikibanana86 · 11/09/2016 08:16

I have 5, because I wanted 5. I was an only and it was boring but I'm willing to admit that was partly down to parenting more than just being an only child.
I think people go on about why they make choices but the reality is you just do what's right for you, I don't believe many people genuinely make their decision based on the planet being over populated.

Blackberryandapplejam · 11/09/2016 08:20

Good post Leavemywings

srslylikeomg · 11/09/2016 08:20

Great post leave

I do have an opinion on this, despite normally being careful to have a 'live and let live' attitude. I think having more than two, three at a push, children is a bizarre and selfish vanity project. It amazes me that people think their genes are so special the planet requires them to have 11 kids or whatever. The worst thing you can do for the environment is have another baby - another human to use resources, take flights, eat food, use water etc etc as inconvenient as that may be to people living out a Sound of Music fantasy having kids isn't a gift to the planet it's a bloody great drain.
I do understand the impulse though... I'd love more babies. But I think enotionally and morally we've reached our limit.

Headofthehive55 · 11/09/2016 08:22

Because it makes it more bearable when you have one that has sn. (And less of a burden for the one you had already)

Kikibanana86 · 11/09/2016 08:28

Also I notice children from smaller families are usually quite spoiled, I think my children get more from having siblings than they get from loads of undivided attention doing Hama beads or whatever.

LeaveMyWingsBehindMe · 11/09/2016 08:33

My children has siblings too, Just not so many that it feels more like cousins, or a children's home.

Headofthehive55 · 11/09/2016 08:37

leave having older ones care for younger ones with supervision is very very good for their development. It doesn't steal their childhood, rather it fosters a sense of caring and nurtures their ability. Whereas I notice only children tend to only think of themself.
It would be normal for my uni aged DD to pick one up from childcare after she's been to work and make tea, take them to a club, etc.

Brokenbiscuit · 11/09/2016 08:38

Also I notice children from smaller families are usually quite spoiled, I think my children get more from having siblings than they get from loads of undivided attention doing Hama beads or whatever.

I really don't think comments like this are helpful on either side. My dd is no more spoilt than your child is neglected ffs!

AllieinWonderland · 11/09/2016 08:44

LeaveMyWings I think you're generalising an awful lot there.

For example - there are nine children in my house, and I have a rule that every Friday three can have a friend round. It alternates, so they are all able to have friends round to our house, and they all regularly go to other friends' houses. Birthday parties too have always been pretty similar to that of any other child's that I've seen. My five year old had eleven children round to play party games. My ten year old had seven girls around to have an "arty party" etc. It doesn't look to me like they're missing out.

And if I were to die right now, I believe it would actually be easier for my children to cope BECAUSE there are 5 of them plus four step siblings. They would have one another's support, and I know exactly who they would live with. I would find if I had only one child and were to die now, that would be far harder for the solitary child.

And regarding the daughter I have adopted - what would have happened to her if she hadn't moved in with us? I could cope with her, and I do cope. Her parents only had her, but couldn't. Different people have different limits.

My five year old helps with the washing up, helps fold the washing, and dusts the banisters. I think that extra responsibility is good for her, and I know in class her teachers are always complimenting how good she is at "just getting on with it".

And all my children do get one on one time - I feel I know them better than some of my friends with just two children know their children. They're open with me and I am always available to talk. I don't think more children in a house has affected us negatively at all. And I don't remember the last time my 18/17 year olds had to babysit or take care of their younger siblings.

Not all large families work, but not all large families are a total mess with neglected children. I don't think it's fair to generalise, and a family with one child is just as like to have issues as one with five or ten.

Brokenbiscuit · 11/09/2016 08:49

FWIW, dd regularly goes round to play at her friend's house, where there are 7 kids. So play dates aren't an impossibility. The friend also comes to some birthday parties, though she never has her own.

miserablesod · 11/09/2016 08:54

Isn't it funny that its acceptable to slag large families off, its like a free for all BUT you dare say anything negative about smaller/ one child families they go nuts. Lol double standards. Just as well it goes over my head, although it does piss me off that my older children notice people staring/counting/making comments about our families.

Oh well, us large families must continue to outbreed the idiots Grin

LeaveMyWingsBehindMe · 11/09/2016 08:54

I agree with you to a point Head and i am sure there were times when I asked the eldest to look out for the other two while I went in the bath or whatever, but I do think often there is too much pressure and expectation put on older children (usually girls) to be mother's help to the younger ones, especially where there is a religious or cultural expectation that women will marry and become breeding heifers to supply a large brood.

I know what you mean about some only children though. That's why I think most people feel that the 'ideal standard' is to have two or three. It's about balance. But for various reasons we don't always want, or can have what the majority considers ideal. There can be some flexibility to that 'ideal' without any negative outcomes, of course there can. But some people do seem to push their luck and fly in the face of good sense, which just invites problems IMHO.

EllenDegenerate · 11/09/2016 08:58

I am pregnant with my fifth.
This will be my last child as it is the last child that we can afford to raise comfortably.

The 'psychology' of my choice to have a larger family is that I was an only child and on balance it was miserable; especially so when I lost my father tragically aged twenty six and my mum suffered both mentally and consequently physically due to this.

Also I don't consider having a large family as an impediment either to our lifestyle or to society as a whole. It is not over populated in our area of the country, we are more than satisfied to holiday within the UK, Center Parcs, Ribby Hall etc.

We can afford to give our children a comfortable if not lavish upbringing.

I am inordinately blessed with a rather profligate reproductive system which, believe me I am thankful for.
My mother struggled for a decade to carry a child to full term, suffered miscarriages and failed attempts at IVF.
I am wholly cogniscant of how very fortunate I am to have my four, soon to be five, beautiful, healthy, happy children.

surferjet · 11/09/2016 08:58

Large families always look more fun. I'd have had 5 or 6 if I could. & from a child's point of view I'm sure having brothers & sisters to play & chat with is preferable to being an only. & I agree that you can be a crap parent even if you have just one child. The number of children isn't always relevant to how good a parent you are.

Brokenbiscuit · 11/09/2016 09:02

Isn't it funny that its acceptable to slag large families off, its like a free for all BUT you dare say anything negative about smaller/ one child families they go nuts.

Er, no actually. I made it clear in my first post on this thread that I don't think it's right to judge anyone on the size of their family.

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