Large Families

[Czerny88]

I'm trying to understand the psychology behind people having large families (by which I mean anything over three children, I guess). NB I'm thinking about people in the 21st century, in the West, with access to contraception and low infant mortality, who don't belong to a culture where it is particularly encouraged to have a large number of children, such as Judaism. And obviously there are circumstances such as multiple births which don't apply.

My visceral feeling is that it is often wrong on many levels. In attempting to enunciate why, I would say people should not have more children than they can afford, than they have time to care for, than can fit comfortably in their living accommodation.

And even in the case where the parents are very wealthy, have a huge house and extra support such as a nanny, there is still the hugely important issue of over-population. It feels like we are at capacity already, without room to increase the population by the amount would result by every couple having even three children.

I'm trying not to be too goady or right-wing, and I have personal reasons for the way I feel (I am involuntarily childless) so please don't be too harsh, but it's something I struggle with ideologically as well as emotionally.

So... AIBU to think that people should be more responsible about how many children they produce and not act solely on their own desires regardless of the potential effects on others? Or is that an unrealistic, draconian expectation?

I have 4. I had a miscarriage after my first 2 and had several years trying for the third, I was heartbroken at the time with trying for the third. I know people would say 'be happy with your 2, what are you upset about'. I wanted so much to have that extra child. We were lucky, after a 5 year gap we had number 3. And 2 years later number 4, part of my reason was I didn't want number 3 to be on their own.
My family are my world (same if you have 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 ...), we can definitely afford them. I am so lucky to not have to work so I spend my life running after them and love it. It was an overwhelming desire to have children and then after 4 that desire went and I was ready to stop. I think lots of people stop either due to finances or the need for another has stopped. I would never judge someone who has no children or one etc, it's down to personal circumstances and desire, no one can TELL you when to stop, that's obscene.
Thought I would share with you what made me go on to have 4 but I honestly don't think anyone should have to justify their life choices.

So - why do people with bigger families feel that this is their 'feeling right' number

Because they fucking do. And what business is it of yours?

MumOnTheRunCatchingUp, while I don't agree with the OP, that was a really fucking nasty post. Does it make you feel good about yourself to be so gratuitously unpleasant?

I hope I'm not too late to the party! I've got a few pennies worth!

What about those who do have fertility problems, like yourself (or I, please don't think I'm being horrible!), some things come with a risk of multiples...imagine the happiness at falling pregnant and finding out you were carrying 5/6/7 fetuses, I think that is a reason people may (rarely) end up with so many.

I also think some women are addicted to having babies, I can see the whole cycle being addictive in some ways. I have CRAVED the newborn stage since my daughter was 8 months old, sadly fertility issues have stopped me enjoying that again!

I also think that sometimes people have lost children, and are trying to replace them, my father works with those who have addictions. He says it's quite normal for women who have had children removed from their care to keep falling pregnant, with the expectation they will be able to keep their new baby, despite circumstances having not changed.

There are also those who are in poverty, sometimes the prospect of the extra money coming in, is the thing that matters.

This day in age it's normal that you start a new relationship, you have a baby... I am 1/4 children who my mother gave birth to I'm six years, we all have different dads.

I can see in a sense what you mean. But I think that all people have something to give to the world.
I'm not so concerned with the size of families, but more about people who have families bigger than they can afford, bigger than they can emotionally support. I don't understand why some women struggle with one child, but have others who end up equally as hard for her to deal with.. to me it just seems a little bit feckless, but there are some beautiful families who are brought up wonderfully, and with the aim of giving something positive to the world as/when they grow up.

I'm planning on having at enough for a football team so yabu and judgy but carry on

And of course, I'm on a get rich quick scheme to claim all the benefits and get the free house and anything I can scramble around for. Why else would anyone have children, of course I am a bit sex mad so maybe that could be it!
Ok, I'll leave you alone now op, you're already bitter enough

Arseicle - by why do they fucking feel that way? I'm not trying to say that one is good or right. But there are people who have one and that is enough, others would keep going forever. The desire to have babies is utterly illogical on a personal level (they just suck you dry to time, money, energy, health, freedom etc etc) but also so very strong (is that some kind of primal survival of the species thing? Then why do different countries have different expectations?).

I've realized that I grew up with a VERY set expectation that two children, with a three year gap, was the only/best way. My parents are not known for being flexible and open minded, and over the years I've noted comments about families that had children 'so close together' (my sister has just over 2 years between her 2) or 'so many children (3 or more) or 'it seems cruel they must be lonely (one child) and I realize that when I was younger I probably absorbed those ideas without too much critique.

Now I think my parents are VERY narrow minded, my sister also accepts that 2 children is the only 'right' number, but we only managed one child through IVF, but I'd have wanted three, maybe four, if I'd been able to do that.

So - what is it that makes people feel so differently about such a serious issue? Is having a child in a serious relationship so very important? How come some people are happy without any children?

I think it's fine to ask these questions, and I don't want to imply any judgement, just trying to work out what makes us all react so much to this question. And I know that many people feel that they are often attacked for daring to have more than 2 - but I'm interested in the question, although I don't necessarily agree with the OP.

I have seven dc, many people have none. The birth rate is rapidly falling in the uk is it 1.4 children?
So re over population it evens out and yer still we having an aging population,

Oh and I have seven for the same reason many have two. My dh and I love our children and can provide for them.

Those talking about overpopulation are being ridiculously simplistic. There's a lot more to population demographics than absolute number. In the Western world birth rate has been falling - in some cases precipitously - for several generations, resulting in an ageing society with high future care needs, and simultaneously a decreasing tax base from which to fund those needs.

We have four children who we have the financial, physical and psychological resources to care for without government contributions. They are likely to be the high income earners of the future whose taxes will pay for the medical and other needs of all those smugly congratulating themselves on "saving the planet" by having fewer children.

Why do people want more children?

I dont know. I just know why I wanted more. I never felt "done". There was always a gap somehow. And then I had DC6, and although I do feel a stab of regret that I will never have that newborn stage again, and I dont think grandchildren are the same, I dont feel that overwhelming urge to have another child that I felt before. Perhaps thats because I know that financially and practically we are at our limit, I cant say for sure that I wouldnt want o have another if I won the lottery tonight (I didnt, just checked :( ), but I dont think that I would. my eldest is 25 and my youngest is 5. I will have been parenting for 39 years when DC6 is 18, and I will be nearly 60! I think that it is finally time that I plan for getting my life back!

I have to admit, that although I am in my late 40s, if I could turn back time and have had another kid (or two) I absolutely would have. But now I think I would be terrified if I somehow magically got pregnant (not going to happen).

Those talking about overpopulation are being ridiculously simplistic.

Gee. Well as a parent of four children you would say that wouldn't you?

They are likely to be the high income earners of the future whose taxes will pay for the medical and other needs of all those smugly congratulating themselves on "saving the planet" by having fewer children.

Sweet irony.

You sound utterly smug yourself!

OP I fear this is a conversation that will be nigh on impossible to have on Mumsnet. The thread is veritably bristling with offence!

You should speak to David Attenborough however, he's in absolute agreement!

You sound utterly smug yourself

You could try addressing the points I make rather than just insulting me.

The thread is veritably bristling with offence

Yep, starting with the OP's assertion that my family is "wrong on many levels". Apparently it's fine for those with fewer children to judge, and be offensive about, my lifestyle choices (and those of others) in really quite personal terms, but we get patronised and insulted for responding.

I didn't insult you. I was addressing your 'point' about the smugness of people with 2.0 or fewer children. Surely you must see that your post about your children potentially being the high earners of the future comes across as more than a tad smug itself?

I knew two women who had large families, the first lost her first baby to cot death and I suspect there was an element of trying to fill a void although the excuse was she wanted a girl .......I think it was number 7 that was a girl and then she one more so her daughter wasn't the only girl thankfully that was a girl too and her husband practically ran to the hospital to get the snip.

The other only had three when I knew her and had also miscarried a couple of times and she and her husband had split up and she was having a really bad time but things changed she and her husband got back together moved to a new area and started their own business and had another ten or eleven kids. They are really happy .

Really though the only thing these two women have in common is husbands who love kids too and a miscarriage history. I really don't know if the miscarriages are relevant or not . My thought in that situation is personally it wouldn't want me to have lots more pregnancies as the worry would be very stressful but clearly neither of them felt that way.

I've seen one of them guest write on here so I'm quite cautious not to say too much and out her . Ultimately if you want a large family and can afford it then what anyone else thinks doesn't matter. I know people who prefer having dogs to kids ......same thing applies but people aren't nearly so judgemental about people whose kids just happen to be furry.

Well no, because dogs only live for 15 years and don't tend to take up as many resources!

Not smug, no - a statement of not quite fact, but based on current university courses, career aims, school results etc, high probability. "Taxpayers of the future" if you prefer, but arguing about semantics doesn't invalidate the point.

And the smugness of the small family brigade that got up my nose is on display throughout this thread for all to see. Make your own family choices, but don't think they make you better, or more thoughtful, or more responsible than me.

There probably is an interesting discussion to be had around this topic, but starting by putting people on the defensive with such a judgemental first post is really not the best way to achieve it.

My DCs are going to be high earners. That's a fact. Just saying it doesn't mean I am smug about it.

I don't envy them. Their tax burden will probably be higher than my generation's, because they will have fewer peers paying taxes and there will be more elderly people needing more care later into life, more agricultural sector subsidies to pay for to make sure populations can eat, and there will be far less in terms of good state schools or parks or childcare provision for their children because many 'child-free' sections of the community vote quite selfishly and will not support more money for schools or anything else that is child-related.

I find it incredibly offensive when people are openly baffled about the choice to have a larger than normal number of children.

Stop being baffled. Stop thinking about other people's private decisions. They are none of your business.

I found the OP's posts crass in the extreme, and her offence at the offence that was voiced was evidence of an incredible degree of self absorption. 'Do as I say, not as I do' most definitely applies to what she posted.

'I'm trying to understand the psychology behind people having large families '

FFS.
Patronising, much?

You're on the brink [I am being kind here] of pathologising the completely normal and healthy decisions of many completely normal, responsible and very, very average people.

You're incorrect to state boldly (smugly?) that your children are going to be high earners. Fact. math. They may have an accident rendering them physically incapable. They may have a mental beak down. They may opt out. They may simply not want the high earning career you think they are capable of.

There is a 99% chance that they will all be high earners.
Several of them are already embarked on their careers and have demonstrated ample ability to earn a lot.

They want the careers that are well paid because they know how much life costs, and that there is no welfare/safety net here.