to ask would you send your eldest Dc to a grammar school?

[var12]

Hypothetical question... if there were grammar schools in your area and your DC1 was offered a place, would you accept it?

That would be "one's own children". I think.... (hic)

Good night smallfox (and all)

Small fox are you saying that people like me 'Bibere Venenum In Auro' in our belief of the benefit of the grammar school system !

However, bear in mind my school would not let me take my GCSEs they considered me a candidate for 'Special School'

In some ways yes sandy.

It isn't a method of improving social mobility, it merely protects status quo, whist allowing some through the hoops and we are all supposed to sing hosannas to its benevolence.

Your support of the system is therefore in errorem.

I'm actually genuinely intrigued - I'm assuming your children are bright smallfox, as you appear to be? Would you be happy with them unstretched at school and possibly bored so that they aren't given an advantage over less able children? That's what this thread seems to be about?

I am a bit confused, what is the difference between a grammar and a super selective?

I think they can be one and the same sad. Some grammars are super selective. As are some independent schools.

I think eg the Tiffins would probably now be classed as super selective, although I could be wrong..

The "unstretched" point frustrates me massively. The very brightest at GCSE can be stretched further, yes, but most schools don't have those sort of resources since the budget cuts. The pressure on schools means that allocation has been given to the border line students because if you don't get them over that line then the pressures become even worse. The twilight courses in extra languages, humanities etc that used to be offered for extra GCSEs have dwindled as funding falls and pressure on teachers escalates, as have some of the extra curricular opportunities that used to be offered in the STEM subjects. It just can't be done with the time and resources available.

Spending billions on yet another reorganisation of the system won't change this, it will simply exacerbate the problem for the many whilst insulating the few.

If it was the right school for ds they yes I would

I have had to put my political ideals aside when making decisions what is best for ds and his education

Also, hot housing children doesn't always work.

Often I think that if children are finding the GCSEs so easy that they are passing with flying colours and not feeling challenged this should be the point where they undertake some personal study, further develop their extra curricular activities, reading the cannon, developing their CV with charity work etc etc. Or maybe just enjoy a bit of time of less pressure before the A levels start which is often a great leveller.

My own school offers early entry to GCSE Maths and English, and if the students achieve their A to A* grades they have a selection of courses at AS level that they are able to take, often those that are interesting but might be discouraged as a full A level option, on top of this there is the additional maths course, the opportunities to do EPQs etc. We're not that uncommon for a non selective comp with a 6th form.

Not getting at anyone, but its also common to find a child who claims to be not challenged, not actually performing at the heights expected of those that would be expected of those at the very top. Everyone thinks they have the brightest children at home.

I am a bit confused, what is the difference between a grammar and a super selective?

This is my understanding, but I'm willing to be corrected!

A local grammar school has a catchment area, so is nominally for dc in the locality, and sets a pass mark for its 11+ exam. If a child achieves the pass mark, whether only just, or near the top, then a place will automatically be offered unless the school is over-subscribed. In that case places will be offered using a number of criteria, giving preference to children who, for example, are 'looked after', in receipt of pupil premium or live closest to the school.

A super-selective school doesn't have a catchment, as such, so is open to applications from a wider area, and doesn't have a pass mark, but simply offers its places to the children who have achieved the highest scores in the exam, until all the available places have been allocated.

To add:

That effectively means that the ordinary Grammar could, in theory, not offer places to the children who had got the highest scores in the 11+ , if more children had passed than there were places available, and the high scorers didn't meet any of the other admissions criteria. That wouldn't happen with the super-selective Grammars.

Given that MNers tend to be a very intelligent, I am surprised how difficult it is for some people to see past their own noses. It benefits your child and the world they grow up in to have all children receive the best possible education. Statistics and data has shown that the grammar system does not benefit the majority. Therefore, looking at the long-term, it is not a positive thing to focus on a small-ish percentage. Education should be improved for all children of all abilities. We all agree that the education system is failing our children.

Oh and if anyone criticises my SPaG, I'll lob my empty jar of peanut butter at you (and no, I won't even let you lick the spoon) because I'm dosed up on morphine and I just don't care if I spelt a word wrong or used a wrong turn of phrase.

In wholly selective areas, the pass mark is adjusted slightly every year to match the number of places available

My children's HT always says "we are not an exam factory" in response to a suggestion that challenge could come via additional or early exams. No suggestions from the school, just a definitive refusal to a suggestion that might help keep the Dc engaged.
So fair enough, the school is not an exam factory. It doesn't matter - you only need a certain number of GCSEs anyway.
DS1 amuses himself out of school with self guided study, except its not really study. Its just things that interest him. However, that's not the issue either.
The issue is what he does in school. It is just creepingly slow and quite superficial at times.
For example, last week a teacher described the spectrum of politics to the year 10 class, and the way she described had DS thinking that she was mis-stating somethings and skimming over a lot. He told us over dinner and he was right. In class however, Ds just sits quietly and wonders whether he needs to memorise the dumbed down version or go with what he knew already?
The fact is that his needs are not being met by the school, not even close. Its not the school's fault - they cater to the vast majority of the full spectrum in their care and with anything left over, they devote themselves to the lowest achievers. Ds needs to be elsewhere, but due to my failure to have him sit the entrance exams for the highly selective grammar, he's stuck there for another couple of years.
He's done 9 years already. Primary school was much, much worse. He'll cope (but he shouldn't have to and no one should demand that he, and the other children like him, should for the benefit of les autres).

because, apparently, "every child matters". (Although even that policy was about the lower achieving).

So why didn't your child put his hand up and ask a question and start a discussion?

I live in Bucks - it's 100% selective (grammars and uppers which are essentially secondary moderns - no comps). Both my children are at grammar (mixed sex) - which has been in discussion with Theresa Mays constituency about opening an annex there (I am against this). It's an amazing school, they are very happy, I would prefer that we didn't have selective education!

Why didn't a 14 year old, in a class of his peers, put his hand up and point out that the teacher had just given a grossly simplistic description of the UK and US political spectrums? Can't you guess?

I didn't say criticize the teacher- I said ask a question.

There seems to be a lot more grammar counties in England than I thought.
I knew Kent had retained them somehow.
Birmingham has the Kind Edward schools.
Liverpool has Bluecoats.
Manchester might have some.
But Bucks too?

How come all these places escaped the mass closures in the early 70s?

Because he might not be quite as unique as you think he is- there will be other interested intelligent kids in his class.

the question has an implied criticism. "Excuse me miss, but do you think what you just said about how the liberal party inhabit the middle ground. For a start they are the lib dems and have been for nearly 20 years. Secondly, they really see themselves as progressives, and that's not where the middle ground is...."

I can imagine that the others would be really eager to hang out with him after that.

Bucks is 100% selective - always has been. It's the only county with no comprehensives - Kent, Birmingham, Warks etc all have comps. All Bucks children are automatically entered for the 11+ - this year they will sit it, in their primary schools, this Thursday.