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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

to ask would you send your eldest Dc to a grammar school?

908 replies

var12 · 10/09/2016 17:33

Hypothetical question... if there were grammar schools in your area and your DC1 was offered a place, would you accept it?

OP posts:
EllsTeeth · 12/09/2016 20:40

Definitely not so in my dad's case I can assure you. His parents had very menial jobs and couldn't afford his uniform. Perhaps my dad is an exception but I do know others of his generation (quite a few actually) who succeeded in similar ways. Anyway I don't want to derail the thread!

BertrandRussell · 12/09/2016 20:40

Not sure how that double post happened, sorry. But I do feel very strongly about it!

Bobochic · 12/09/2016 20:43

Bertrand - yes, people care about their own children, and sometimes they care about the children of their social circle, their relatives and friends. I don't care about the children of peplevI don't know because it would outrageous to presume that I know better than them what choices would be good for their children. That is their business.

EllsTeeth · 12/09/2016 20:44

"Yes Bertrand I think you'll find it's true that most people care first and foremost about their own kids."

Of course they do. But in order to support grammar schools you have to care only about your own kids.

I don't think that's true. I care about other kids. I just care about my own kids more.

smallfox2002 · 12/09/2016 20:45

Your dad is the exception, the data proves it, you're making a post hoc ergo propter hoc fallacy.

Wellywife · 12/09/2016 20:48

Bertrand you can sometimes have another go at 11+. DS's friend did and moved from Secondary Mod to Grammar in Y9.

EllsTeeth · 12/09/2016 20:49

I don't know what that means smallfox. Obviously my public school education has let me down Wink

multivac · 12/09/2016 20:49

Nice cop out, bobo.

What about the children mentioned earlier, the ones whose families 'don't care about education, about homework, about exams'? What about children who care for a family member and can't prioritise academia as a result? What about the children who look an awful lot like your children, but who score a mark or two too low to access similar educational privileges? What about the children whose parents don't realise there might be a choice - that it might be possible to choose to aspire, and to succeed? The children of parents whose parents weren't 'clever or hardworking' to pass the 11+ a generation and a half ago?

You don't care about any of them?

You think it would be 'presumptious' to fight for something better for them - even, and especially, if their parents can't or won't?

MaQueen · 12/09/2016 20:51

I care about other children (well, a bit) but I care about my own DDs infinitely more.

However, if I wanted to score moral Brownie points, I guess I could pretend to care passionately about the education of children I don't know, and will never meet...?

smallfox2002 · 12/09/2016 20:52

Obviously you're not THAT well educated Ells, what a waste of money, I am a comp prole and I know what it means ;)

multivac · 12/09/2016 20:55

Why would you pretend something like that, Maqueen?

EllsTeeth · 12/09/2016 20:55

I care about other children (well, a bit) but I care about my own DDs infinitely more.

However, if I wanted to score moral Brownie points, I guess I could pretend to care passionately about the education of children I don't know, and will never meet...?

Once again I agree wholeheartedly with you MaQueen!

limitedperiodonly · 12/09/2016 20:56

I am against selective education because I passed the 11+ and saw the alternative for my primary school friends who didn't. Anyone saying we should have more grammar schools should be honest enough to add: 'and we'll have secondary moderns for all the rest.'

It amazes me that some of the greatest fans of grammar schools are people who failed to get into them or would have done if they'd have taken the 11+. Maybe I'll write a PhD on the subject if I have the time.

My school had its fair share of poor teachers, bullies, underachievers, neurotic over achievers and mediocre students who worked very hard but were never going to trouble the top of the end of year exams. It's naive not to realise that. It's also naive to think your child has made it by passing the 11+. Getting in is not the end, but the start. You have to watch your child's progress like a hawk - and I'm not just talking about academic progress.

The mediocre students were bullied for being thick by some of the cleverer children and some teachers. I imagine they weren't thick - after all, they passed the 11+ - but but they were just thick compared to the rest of us. That's what happens when you encourage competition against others rather than achieving to your own best standard. Someone is always going to be bottom of the heap and ridiculed for it.

We also had streaming for English, Maths and Modern Languages. Those of us in the top set were encouraged to look down on the others. I think that's okay because we were really clever Hmm.

You really didn't want to be in the third set because oddly, the duffest teachers who were coasting got those classes so those pupils struggled and floundered. The sensible thing to do would be to give those classes to the most gifted teachers, but no one smart has ever said grammar schools were sensible.

Bobochic · 12/09/2016 20:56

No I don't care about them. I'm not some sort of Victorian spinster who carries baskets of fruit and calves foot jelly to the less fortunate. Peop,e don't need to be patronized. I don't think all parents are universally good but it isn't my business to care very much.

EllsTeeth · 12/09/2016 20:56

Obviously you're not THAT well educated Ells, what a waste of money, I am a comp prole and I know what it means ;)

You got me there smallfox Wink

BertrandRussell · 12/09/2016 20:58

Back to the "3 impossible things before breakfast list"

It is presumptuous to care about the educational opportunities of the children of people I don't know.

Not sure whether this is higher up the league table than the suggestion that failing is an important part of learning to win- but grammar school children can learn that lesson vicariously by watching other children fail the 11+!

smallfox2002 · 12/09/2016 20:58

Oh bobo, your right wing dribble is amusing.

Mouseinahole · 12/09/2016 21:08

Retired teacher and ex grammar school pupil here, yes 1000 times yes. I was taught that for working class/ poor children education was the way up and out. I grew up on a council estate in a pit village. Kids like me were destined for factories, shops and cafes or down the mine if you were a boy. If, however, you went to grammar school then the world was yours.
What if you failed the exam? There's the problem, the quality of education in non grammar schools and the public perception of it. It has to be equally valued to allow every child to achieve his/her potential. There needs to be equal investment at every level.
We need to get rid of an ethos where pupils are bullied and derided because academic success is regarded as inferior to success on the sports field or in a tv studio.
Grammar schools, properly managed could be wonderful as could technical schools etc.

smallfox2002 · 12/09/2016 21:09

Survivor bias, again.

EllsTeeth · 12/09/2016 21:12

But if there are several examples that can't all be "survivor bias" can they fox?

limitedperiodonly · 12/09/2016 21:12

I don't really care about other people that much. But I care passionately about myself.

I'm also smart enough to see that because of some arbitrary exam, and the 11+ is arbitrary, I might have missed out on a good education and been consigned to a crap one.

Maybe that should be the sole question deciding whether people are worthy of a good education or unable to grasp the consequences of being denied one.

MaQueen · 12/09/2016 21:23

Ells I had a vair expensive private education, and I wasn't sure either Grin

smallfox2002 · 12/09/2016 21:25

If there are several examples is still doesn't trump the data does it els?

EllsTeeth · 12/09/2016 21:26

Ha ha MaQueen. Maybe we went to the same school Grin

smallfox2002 · 12/09/2016 21:28

Look up survivor bias and you'll understand why it works for the grammar school anecdotes.

And gosh, all these private schools teaching neither critical thinking nor Latin well, hardly pushing the most able.