Pardon?

[MothersGrim]

AIBU to not bother with the word "Pardon" for my young children? It seems like a generational thing to me but my parents and in laws correct my young children when they ask "What?"

I was just curious what the expectation is nowadays, should I be teaching them 'pardon'? Is it bad manners not to

As for language losing class distinctions, how often do you see 'hun' on mumsnet vs netmums?

I say all of these interchangeably depending on who I am talking to

being able to tell something about someone's background from the way they speak

Depends if your assumptions are 'correct'. The only thing you can tell if someone says 'pardon' is that they've either been bought up to say 'pardon' or they have modified their speech to 'fit in'.

Other than that, you can't really assume anything. And it is clear that there are aspects of society which do judge and don't 'let you in' (jobs being one) if you don't use the 'correct words'.

DelicatePreciousThing

You do realise there is something you said on here that people were too polite to pick up on?

It was not grammatically correct.

Absolutely - people change their language all the time based on their audience.

Absolutely - people change their language all the time based on their audience

I think with that you've got to be careful not to be 'a fraud' - I don't think people like people who use language to 'fit in' - but I am sure that some people modify their language so as not to offend.

But if I was at a meeting and I didn't hear what someone said, I would use 'pardon' - in a nice, friendly tone.

If I said 'better out than in' when I farted, I think that would not be appropriate.

"Pardon" is not rude at all, but it's definitely a class marker. That doesn't mean there is anything wrong with it though.

I was brought up to say "what" or "sorry". I think "what" can sound a bit rude to some people, so tend to go with "sorry" most of the time. I say "what" when I'm with my family though.

I agree. People adapt but can sound a bit false. And it's the same with pronunciation.

I remember a very posh boy at university who started to drop his t in the middle of words like "party" ("par'y") to try and fit in, and it sounded ridiculous. But I noticed later on he dropped the final t on words instead, which was less obvious.

Politicians do it a lot, too. Cameron used to say "Bridain" as he knew the "t" might make him sound too posh, but dropping it completely would make him sound like he was trying too hard.

I think people are wilfully misunderstanding social class markers as being something not-very-nice-people get individually judgemental about, like, I don't know, being snide about babies using dummies or something. You only have to look at the last Cabinet to see how operative social class as a set of structures still is in this country, for heaven's sake! And look at the baby names forum on Mn for a closer-to-home example of class consciousness - names get derided as 'chavvy' (marked as WC) or 'try-hard' (marked as obviously socially aspirational, in the opinion of posters) all the time, and the 'high court judge'/QC test of a name comes up on hundreds of threads. Someone on a recent 'how to hold your knife' thread talked about I think Sandhurst marking a recruit as 'HKLP'. I've certainly heard on more than one occasion (and judged harshly) 'NQOC' ('Not Quite Our Class'). On a much more serious level, look at the relationship between social class, education, income, health, length of life.

I would personally love to see it all swept away at one fell swoop, but pretending social class ended with WWII/ the last debutantes/choose other random date, is just hiding your head in the sand.

@user1471734618
Just making a point. I am not going to respond to your...erm...point about dyslexia and so on. I am quite sure of my position on those.

My post clearly needed a "rolls eyes" emoticon. Oh well.

Weirder and weirder. I repeat.

So this etiquette thing: is it polite to crook your little finger when drinking a cup of tea?

Answer : nope. You curl your fingers into the handle. Think the little finger being extended thing was overcompensation.

Considered in the "trying to be delicate" lower middle class kind of thing. Along with doilies.

Fish knives: dead proper or not?

is it polite to crook your little finger when drinking a cup of tea

I suspect tea drinking has lots of pitfalls for people if they are trying to 'fit in with a social class'

Tea bag?
Tea first, then milk?
Do you even have milk?
Or lemon?
What brand of tea?
Saucer or mug?
Sugar?
Sipping or gulping?

Bread roll: break into portions or cut with your butter knife?

I believe fish knives have already been covered.

I feel the need to post this. Catherine Tate on posh people. Some people might recognise themselves.

Leaving something for Miss/Mr Manners at the side of your plate?

Positioning your cutlery after you have finished? The blunt ends should be at the 4 o'clock position.

Bunty:
Yep. Quite recently. Has every angle been covered, though?

Crooking your little finger is well into Hyacinth Bucket territory. My MIL does it, along with a doily, serviette and cake fork obsession. She also uses settee, living room, sweet (instead of dessert or pudding), and copious quantities of pardon.

She is desperately insecure and needs to be seen as posh at every opportunity - of course like Hyacinth all her attempts just reveal she isn't.

I was brought up be sheer accident on What?, paper napkin, sitting room, loo, pudding, sofa etc - my mum was an au pair to some very smart people and that's how she learnt English. She then scrimped to send me to a prep school that taught the same words.

I've code switched since I was a child but as discussed above, I don't change all the words in a fake way - if I'm in someone's house and they say living room, I'll use living room and so on. But I don't think I'll ever say serviette

I know the whole thing is silly, I'm judging anyone for what they say - except probably me for being so ridiculous about hating the word serviette! Oh and my MIL for trying to do class one upmanship on me and my mum because they have more money than us. You can't buy class, dahling

Two examples of class, genuine class.
When we were kids spaghetti came in tins ( I am old). Then when "long spaghetti" became available we had that but cut it up into manageable pieces, rather than the twirl round a fork thing. My sister went out with a lad higher up the social ladder and went out to an Italian restaurant with the family. When the spaghetti came she asked for a knife so she coukd cut it up. Without batting an eyelid, the father immediately asked for a knife too and said" I'm glad you asked first. I much prefer it this way than all that messy twirling". Of course, he had never used a knife before in his life,and my sis cringes now at the thought of how gauche she was,but he was a perfect gentleman.
Second example.a few weeks ago we were lucky enough to attend d the Edinburgh military tattoo as VIP guests ( thanks to work) and I took my 82 year old very working class mother. We had "supper" in the castle first, a buffet with plates on knees and lots of very very senior officers in mess dress etc. My mother sat on a low chair as her back was bad, and the host of the evening g spotted her having some difficulty craning her neck up tp talk to people. In full black tie Mess dress he dropped to his knees saying " wonderful. A chance to get off my feet for a bit" and ate his supper sitting on the floor and chatting to her. Absolute bloody class!!

Dementedma you are so right, that is the true meaning of class!

Those are excellent examples!