Pardon?

[MothersGrim]

AIBU to not bother with the word "Pardon" for my young children? It seems like a generational thing to me but my parents and in laws correct my young children when they ask "What?"

I was just curious what the expectation is nowadays, should I be teaching them 'pardon'? Is it bad manners not to

" I just like nice people and couldn't give a toss how they talk. "

How true. I mean just because someone says 'napkin' or whatever doesn't mean they are not a total cunt does it?

"There are ever so many round carrots in this tasty stew"

We use "what say?" It was one of DD's phrases when she was a toddler. We sound like farmers. There's nothing wrong with farmers BTW.

I'm from Irish working class family in the north east of England . We were taught pardon as what was rude.

I also lived in the north west and again pardon was acceptable .

I now live in the south and it's what .

Really though, if people really care that much they have too much time on their hands.

We sound like farmers. Oi! Farmers do a lot of shouting over the noise of machinery and animals. 'What?!!' or 'Whit?' here.

derxa

I'm a dinner lady, it's like a chimps' teaparty. I shout "what say?" over the din of noisy eating and animals 300 little angels!

I have to admit that "What say?" really sets my teeth on edge.

What say Judy?

Sometimes a stew can be all round carrots and little meat tho .

I'm really surprised to hear 'pardon' is common! I would of though 'what' is common & rude, 'sorry' can sound rude if said in the wrong time. I would opt for pardon or sorry (in soft tone!)

...would HAVE thought...

Pardon is very common indeed.

As in "ever so rude"?!

I say ever so!

I also call men chaps and say oopsa daisy a lot, I may have been born out of my time.

@missyB1

Seems as if you don't know capital letters and full stops exist either.

Some TES idiot - ooooh that feels good - said "chapesses" or something similarly lame. She liked an Italian motor cyclist.

No matter what you say, it's the 'tone' of how you say it that is important.

I am sure some people can make 'what' or 'pardon' or 'I beg your pardon' sound incredibly rude and impolite.

How true. I mean just because someone says 'napkin' or whatever doesn't mean they are not a total cunt does it?

No, but no one is saying that. It has nothing to do with niceness, human worth, the kind of good manners whose base is making other people feel at ease etc. People are just saying that certain words like 'pardon' are social class markers still in 2016, and that in a society that is still pretty class-bound (which yes, is appalling!), certain situations which could be social or professional (as in the article about the City quoted by a pp) not knowing dress rules, saying 'pardon' or 'ever so' or 'serviette' or 'lounge', looking blank/saying 'Fine,thanks!' when someone says 'How do you do?' or holding your knife like a pen are going to mark you out as 'other' and potentially cause a barrier in some lines of work.

I mean, wouldn't you rather know if you or your adult child kept failing to get a certain type of job because you were literally speaking the wrong 'language' and it was easier to hire someone who was reassuringly familiar to, say, an old money clientele? Sure some firms will say 'This young person is talented and we are prepared to train them socially', but others will take an equally-qualified candidate who already speaks the right language.

And no, it definitely isn't regional. Of course you may have been taught that it was polite to say 'pardon' when you didn't hear someone, as many people have said - if you were being taught by a middle-middle, lower-middle, or aspirational working-class teacher/parent! I certainly was.

www.lady.co.uk/people/8352-pardon-that-s-practically-a-swear-word

This article (in the always hilarious The Lady) quotes Jilly Cooper as saying that 'toilet' is 'creeping upwards' because apparently everyone's poor now and sends their children to state school, where they learn non-U terms you can't then eradicate at home...

if you were being taught by a middle-middle, lower-middle, or aspirational working-class teacher/parent

If any statement sums up the class divide, that's it.

I'd rather DS didn't have to change to fit in and was brought up to be polite - and people recognised that in his tone - rather than having to speak 'the right language to fit in'. But I suppose that's why people go to private school - to get the right attitude and language.

DelicatePreciousThing1

The substitution of "have" for "of" is part of the delightful evolution of English.
I will take the pedantry with a smile...

'I'm so sorry I didn't catch that, could you repeat it'
Or, to DH, very loudly 'EH??!'

" I mean, wouldn't you rather know if you or your adult child kept failing to get a certain type of job because you were literally speaking the wrong 'language' "

I would not encourage my children to apply for those sort of jobs, tbh, because if that is how it was, then their state school education would not be good enough would it?
They know what words to use anyway. Nary a 'toilit' in our house.

I'm not sure it's a state/private thing at all, but I'm willing to be persuaded otherwise, as I'm both a foreigner, working-class and parent to someone who's only just started (state) school. (Though my four year old has already learned that there are expressions his childminder encourages ('trump', 'pardon', 'toilet') that we don't use at home, and code switches as appropriate, which I'm sure all children are capable of.)

Maybe someone who themselves went to private school or whose children are attending one could confirm whether in fact learning class shibboleths forms part of their education, formally or informally? Because the intake at private schools is far from limited to 'old money' upper-middle and upper-class children these days - what about the social class of the teachers? Are you saying they only hire staff who know their U from non-U speech at interview?

(Genuine question to which I'd be really interested in hearing answers from people with private school experience.)

" Maybe someone who themselves went to private school or whose children are attending one could confirm whether in fact learning class shibboleths forms part of their education, formally or informally"

well I went to private school and have no memory whatsoever of this. they were too busy preparing pupils for Cambridge or wherever. But I guess a different kind of private school might have, eg one that was socially rather than academically snobbish.

Though my four year old has already learned that there are expressions his childminder encourages ('trump', 'pardon', 'toilet') that we don't use at home, and code switches as appropriate

Code switches

OMG - someone said 'toilet' - they're going to catch 'common' . Or is it 'middle class'

If someone uses the word 'toilet' or 'pardon', what do you think of them? Or do you not give a shit and judge them on their actions instead of the 'shibboleths' they use?

Gooddays what do you mean. 'Have' is the verb following the conditional 'would', 'of' is a preposition.