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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

To think he should be paid for his time?

183 replies

MargotRogers · 26/08/2016 22:26

Name changed as this is very identifying.

DS is 24 and autistic, he's selectively mute, which means that although he can physically speak and understand, he also isn't able to make himself speak.

He's also a mechanic, this is all honestly down to my older brother who owns a garage. DS has always been good with cars, ever since he was little but after helping him apply for apprenticeships at 16, he just kept getting turned down as he can't actually handle people at all.

He doesn't like to be touched, rarely raises his head and won't communicate with anyone.

DBrother gave him an apprenticeship at his garage and then a job for two days a week. As it was his garage, no one bothered DS or gave him a hard time, it was close enough to walk too and I can tell he really likes it.

DBrother's garage is now going through a rough time and he may have to start letting people go, he's asked if instead of firing someone he could just not pay DS for a while until things get a bit better.

He said that DS is the only one that won't be negatively effected. He lives with us, we happily provide everything for him and he does get benefits as well, so he doesn't need Dbrother to pay him and he won't even realise it or properly understand.

Whereas the other people he employs, live pay check to pay check, they rely on the money to pay for their food and rent.

DS is unlikely to ever get another place as nice to work in, he enjoys going there but DBrother can't give me a definite date on when he may be able to start paying him, I don't know what right for DS, I don't want him taken advantage of but I don't want him to lose this job either.

OP posts:
Merrymumoftwo · 27/08/2016 06:09

SJ should be ask
As a mum with an ASD child I am torn there is the independence gained but if your ds is doing the work at the standard expected it is a slippery slope to start down. If other employees have taken a cut (though by sounds of it they are not) is this, as someone else has suggested, a polite way of saying things aren't working out?
Many colleges offer courses for people with disabilities maybe social worker can see what is available? Then you could potentially compromise short term? Also agree with brother checking that he is getting grant for employing your ds.

DeathStare · 27/08/2016 06:14

I'm sorry if this sounds harsh but I think this is only an issue to you and not to your DS.

It sounds as though your DS doesn't really realise he is being paid at the moment and won't realise the pay has stopped. He does this job because he enjoys it and it gives him esteem, not for the money. And you say he doesn't need the money. Why would you stop him doing something he enjoys and benefits him because of a reason that doesn't matter to him? From the sounds of it it's not like he's likely to find anything else that he enjoys so much.

Also your lovely brother has clearly been generous with his time and money to your DS. Rightly or wrongly he employed him solely because he was family, when nobody else would. Your DB's business is now struggling. In many families this is when brothers/sisters/nieces/nephews step forward and say "is there anything I can do to help?" Many a family business has been kept afloat by relatives stepping in and doing work for free at times of crisis, even relatives who have never previously been involved in the business.

Here we have your DS who has been helped by your brother in the past when he needed it, and who could now help your brother in return during your brother's difficult time, and who would do so gladly and willingly, enjoying it, gaining self-esteem from it and without any change in his lifestyle (which currently makes him happy). Sounds like the perfect solution at least in the short term.

Why would you stop that -resulting in your son being at home, bored with dwindling self-esteem and your brother's business being further at risk - over a point of principle that is important to you but not to your DS?

Merrymumoftwo · 27/08/2016 06:21

www.gov.uk/government/publications/employing-disabled-people-and-people-with-health-conditions/employing-disabled-people-and-people-with-health-conditions

Above is the link for access to work the government grant for those who employ disabled people

1frenchfoodie · 27/08/2016 06:27

I'm with DeathStare above, provided what your DB has suggested is not going to get him into legal hot water O think it is in everybody's interests for you/your DS to help him at what must be an awful time for his business if wages for 2x days a week could help save the business.

I see it as the equivalent of helping a failing family business with e.g. book keeping skills or time to help answer the phone - something I'd definately do for my brother. Yes working for free feels exploitative but the aim, surely, is to try to save the business and protect the jobs long term. It also gives your DS continuity of CV to look for another job using the skills he has learnt from his uncle.

brightspark2 · 27/08/2016 06:30

Talk to your brother and the social worker and the National Autistic Society about grants and support to keep your lad there, within the legal and insurance framework. If your son's part time wage isn't sustainable, could you do the 'home wreck' idea by renting your son some space and access to tools in your brother's garage to work on his own fixer upper cars, get them through the MOT and sell them on - a further income stream for your brother, work and profit for your son and all the therapeutic value of the work on his own vehicles.

Perfectlypurple · 27/08/2016 06:43

It's difficult. On one hand your brother has given him a job, trained him, and your son has a purpose and independence. On the other hand not paying him seems like exploitation which from what you have said your brother has done is not his intention.

Your brother seems to be stuck between a rock and a hard place and he wants to do best by everyone.

How would your son cope with not going there 2 days a week? From what you say he likes the routine and he enjoys what he does, and would be unlikely to get another job. On the other hand he shouldn't have to work for free.

Its a horrible situation for you, your son and your brother. I hope you manage to sort something out.

blueturtle6 · 27/08/2016 06:43

In lieu of payment could your brother given him a share of the business. That also covers him legally as to not paying him, but ensure you get some.work insurance in place

DeathStare · 27/08/2016 06:59

In lieu of payment could your brother given him a share of the business. That also covers him legally as to not paying him, but ensure you get some.work insurance in place

Given that the business is struggling financially, I'm really not sure putting the DS in a position where he would be legally responsible for that is a good idea.

Mummyoflittledragon · 27/08/2016 07:07

I'm with Witchend and Deathstare. If taking the job away from your ds will be more damaging than working there for free, he definitely should stay. I fully appreciate your pain op and I think you need to see it from your ds's PoV. The money for him plays no factor for him choosing to work so neither should it for anyone else.

I'd look in to getting the grant myself - your dbro is probably very busy. Then a compromise could be to pass the tax deducted cash amount directly on to Ds so he would get some kind of remuneration.

DoNotBlameMeIVotedRemain · 27/08/2016 07:07

I'm sorry, your DBro has to pay national minimum wage. HMRC enforce the payment and may pick up non-payment when they are reviewing the garage. It is wrong to agree he can reduce his patments when has no appreciation of what this means.

Merrymumoftwo · 27/08/2016 07:19

I think brightspark2's idea of renting space and using tools is a good one especially if combined with a grant from access to work. Your ds could then continue doing what he loves and db would have money to help his business and te potential to earn a share of cars sold?

billabye · 27/08/2016 07:36

As a garage owner I suspect there may be some insurance problems with renting space and using tools. I doubt DS would be covered under the garage's current trade policy.

Footle · 27/08/2016 07:43

OP, you sound like great supportive people and I hope you find a way for your son to carry on working.

ApocalypseSlough · 27/08/2016 07:54
Flowers You sound like a lovely family.
Dandelion6565 · 27/08/2016 08:00

I would say that it's fine. He doesn't need the money as you said that you are happy to provide for him.
He does need the job though, I'd guess he gets lots from it.

I'd just say yes for six months and not really worry about it.

Waggily · 27/08/2016 08:03

You need to think about who wins in this situation. Either way, it won't be your son or your brother, so what would complaining achieve? Your son loses his job and your brother loses his business. I understand your concerns about your son's rights but I see this as a family issue, not a disability one. Many family members would work for free in this situation to keep the business afloat.

MoreCoffeeNow · 27/08/2016 08:04

I'm sure your brother wouldn't have brought it up if he wasn't struggling. He's been a lovely and supportive brother.

I'd say agree. It's what's best for your DS.

Jengnr · 27/08/2016 08:05

I think it would be worth contacting DWP and your social worker about options here. Your brother could be putting himself into legal hot water here by no longer paying a previously paid staff menber and your son could end up in trouble with his benefits (depending in what he claims) because they may (and more than likely will) consider it to be notional earnings. With the support of the authorities it may be possible for this to be considered a work placement as he is definitely benefitting emotionally from it but the fact he's been paid before may go against him.

There is also the possibility that they can support him in finding a work placement in a similar business which would lead to paid employment and thus negate the interview process.

I think if you continue this without getting advice and a plan put together you could potentially all end up in a much worse situation so tread very carefully. It seems like your brother has done a very kind thing for your son so far and his business could be even more at risk if he falls foul of employment laws as a result of this kindness.

ACAS are the employment law specialists. They might also be a good port of call for advice.

Trifleorbust · 27/08/2016 08:16

Just catching up on the thread and it seems to be the consensus that your brother is trying to do a nice thing, OP. And I completely agree that he is. However, the underlying assumptions and attitudes towards your son (both on the thread and from your brother) raise some important ethical issues. Has your brother only been employing your son to do you and your family a favour, or has he been getting revenue-generating work from him? If the former, your son probably isn't able to actually fix cars and probably is hard work for your brother to have around the garage - that would be him doing you a favour. In that case, I would see no issue with him continuing to go to the garage in the day, because he wasn't working anyway. If he was working and was generating revenue for your brother like any other worker, the fact that your brother has trained him is just a normal expectation in an employer-employee relationship and not a favour; the question is whether your brother would expect a non-autistic relative to work for free because his other employees need the money more, and whether you think this is acceptable. I would always be hesitant about backing the idea that your son is worth less than other people by allowing his boss to behave like he is just doing him a favour, when actually he is benefiting in return from labour provided by your son, even if he is his uncle.

There are also the legal issues. Your brother is obliged to pay minimum wage; he shouldn't be employees different hourly wages for the same work; there are insurance issues; there are issues relating to disability discrimination; there are issues relating to benefits entitlement. Depending on how long your son has worked there, if he wants to fire him, he will need a reason and possibly be obliged to pay redundancy. Your brother sounds like a kind man and I know you wouldn't want him to get into trouble because he was trying to do the right thing.

I think you should go back to your brother and ask whether a temporary pay cut across the board wouldn't be a better option. If not, I would keep my son at home and try to find him a voluntary role or a placement scheme.

HaPPy8 · 27/08/2016 08:18

I would agree to it. Your brother sounds like a good man who has done his best to support his family. Your son will be happier there. Your brother must feel very stressed by this too. Saying no would be cutting off your nose to spite your face I think.

MidniteScribbler · 27/08/2016 08:22

Your brother sounds like a good man, and I'm sure he hated having to ask this of you, so things must be really tough for him right now. If he asked you to come in two days a week for free and answer the phones until the business got back on its feet, and you were able to do so, would you? We used to help out of my uncle's restaurant when he couldn't get staff, it's just something you do for family.

I think looking in to the grants would be a good idea. I have no idea what is available in the UK, but surely there is some sort of work placement program?

cricketballs · 27/08/2016 08:25

I agree with PPs- this is a family situation not a disabled one. Your DB stepped in to help his family (your DS) when he couldn't get anything so now it's time to reverse the situation. You also (as PPs have again pointed out) need to think what not working will do to your DS.

CorkieD · 27/08/2016 08:26

I think the OP really needs to ask herself what she needs to achieve here.

Of course, the OP has every right to contact the authorities about the issue. However, is the the outcome not likely to be that her brother will get into legal difficulties, his business will fail and her son will be out of a job. Is this what she wants?

I think if the OP's brother read this thread, he would have serious misgivings about helping the OP in the past. The OP's brother was willing to help when her son needed a job. The OP seems very unwilling to help in return even if it will negatively impact her son.

Trifleorbust · 27/08/2016 08:27

Midnite: I would help out a family member in need as well, but the OP isn't being asked to volunteer her time, she is being asked to go along with her disabled son working for free - he lacks the capacity to understand the concept of going without pay to do his uncle a favour. This pushes the uncle dangerously close to breaking the law, as he is asking a disabled worker to do a job for nothing, that he is prepared to pay a non-disabled worker to do, and the worker doesn't understand what is being proposed...

Very dodgy territory.

bakeoffcake · 27/08/2016 08:28

I too think your brother has been a really kind, loving uncle. He's supported and trained his nephew.

I think you should support him now as he's going through a very tough time. It would be different if your son felt hurt at the situation but he's more likely to be hurt if you stop him going to his job.