To think he should be paid for his time?

[MargotRogers]

Name changed as this is very identifying.

DS is 24 and autistic, he's selectively mute, which means that although he can physically speak and understand, he also isn't able to make himself speak.

He's also a mechanic, this is all honestly down to my older brother who owns a garage. DS has always been good with cars, ever since he was little but after helping him apply for apprenticeships at 16, he just kept getting turned down as he can't actually handle people at all.

He doesn't like to be touched, rarely raises his head and won't communicate with anyone.

DBrother gave him an apprenticeship at his garage and then a job for two days a week. As it was his garage, no one bothered DS or gave him a hard time, it was close enough to walk too and I can tell he really likes it.

DBrother's garage is now going through a rough time and he may have to start letting people go, he's asked if instead of firing someone he could just not pay DS for a while until things get a bit better.

He said that DS is the only one that won't be negatively effected. He lives with us, we happily provide everything for him and he does get benefits as well, so he doesn't need Dbrother to pay him and he won't even realise it or properly understand.

Whereas the other people he employs, live pay check to pay check, they rely on the money to pay for their food and rent.

DS is unlikely to ever get another place as nice to work in, he enjoys going there but DBrother can't give me a definite date on when he may be able to start paying him, I don't know what right for DS, I don't want him taken advantage of but I don't want him to lose this job either.

Ignore typos. Very cross and phone isn't cooperating.

I think the only thing I would be concerned about would be the impact of each option on your DS's wellbeing.

I appreciate that he doesn't understand pay so won't miss it. However if he loses this job will he miss working?

I suppose my point is that to most of us pay is a fundamental reason for working. It is our reward. We work to earn that reward so that we can afford to do the things we enjoy. However it sounds like this is not your DS's fundamental reason for working. By your own admission he doesn't work for the money to be able to pay for things to enjoy - the work IS what he enjoys, the work, for him, is the reward.

To take that away because of a principle that is important to you, but not him feels wrong. You would be taking away the thing he enjoys because of something you feel is important, but he doesn't and it is him that would lose what he values.

Money isn't the be all and end all. Your son enjoys it and is happy - would he still be happy not working for a reason that doesn't matter to HIM?

Colin I completely understand what your saying and I do agree with you, DS should be paid what he's earned. My issue is that by taking that stand he'll massively lose out, he likes walking to work/leaving the house without DH or I, he likes getting to work on different cars and the garage itself, he won't understand why he can't go anymore and the amount of distress that will cause is honesty worrying me.

Persian, people with ASD aren't all the same, just because you know 2 that can volunteer doesn't mean that they all can. DS doesn't understand money, so he doesn't understand that it's his right to be paid, he thinks everyone just works for nothing, so if he were to be asked to volunteer he would immediately agree, but he wouldn't realise that he'd been giving up money, so he doesn't have the capacity to volunteer, as he doesn't properly understand.

Oh I don't think I'd be comfortable about this Nor do I think an apprentice's wage is going to help save the business. It just borders far too closely picking on the weakest person, and getting some free labour out of them.

I think a compromise would be maybe paying him for one day a week. But I can see why you don't want to go down this road, it feels like a slippery slope.

Would your son's autism prevent him from being able to do a day at a different garage? (if he could get one somehow). Or would the fact it would be strangers and he couldn't communicate with them cause him serious issues? I guess what I mean is, is your brother's garage the only place he's likely to ever be able to work at due to the familiarity of your brother?

I would be concerned about insurance too. If something happened in the garage and your son was injured or if your son accidentally caused injury to someone else, who would be at fault? Would your son be covered by the business insurance?

I can see this from both sides, but the legalities would concern me. If it were my son I would want him to continue to be independent, but it's also not fair for him to not be paid, and I can't see that his small wage would save the business.

I'd try different garage where he can shine in the background or try the home wreck thing in the meantime. I just wouldn't subsidise my son for free work in a relatives garage.

AyeAmarok, DS is okay with new places, it's just that he's never gotten passed the interview stage as he can't actually communicate with the interviewer, DH and I have tagged along to interviews and tried to explain and shows his good points but no ones ever interested.

I won't be suing/or taking my brother to court. He tried to help his Nephew and he can't do it anymore. We just have to accept that.

I'm not comfortable with DS doing this, it feels wrong but then he'll just lose out

I think we'll certainly have to look at other employment opportunities but I need to decide what to do for now.

Have you asked your son if he would be upset at not going to work any more ? Maybe have a proper sit down chat with your brother about it all.

What a shame all round really. Your brother sounds like a decent chap and must be feeling worried for his business and staff.

He's also a mechanic, this is all honestly down to my older brother who owns a garage. DS has always been good with cars, ever since he was little but after helping him apply for apprenticeships at 16, he just kept getting turned down as he can't actually handle people at all.

Okay, so your dbro has been really supportive of him. He's a mechanic all due to your dbro and he employed him at age 16yo when he kept getting turned down.
From this alone it sounds unlikely that he's just doing it because he can get him to work for free. If he'd been going down that route he'd have offer him "experience" for free at the start. He didn't have to take him on.

Also I work with someone who employs a couple of youngsters that sound similar to your ds. They're lovely and work really hard, but take about twice his time, no probably Close to four times the length of time in supporting, helping and calming down when things go wrong. He’s brilliant with them and I never see him losing patience or showing any sign that they are anything but excellent employees-and I see them improving immensely. The idea is that they will be able to get employment elsewhere eventually, not to stay there full time. He could easily employ people who are less vulnerable, and for him it would be much easier, but he sees it as a practical way to help them. It benefits them far more than him.

So if you say to your dbro that you’re not happy if he’s not paid. The chances are he’s going to think “I’ve put myself out to employ him when I could have had others, the other people do as good a job and don’t need as much support. Well in which case I won’t have him here.”
Who’s going to be the loser here? I don’t think it will be your dbro. I think the person who will miss out is your ds.

In that case OP, I'd maybe let your brother cut his wages, if he really thinks he needs to, if it means he can keep going there, and also ask your brother if he could use any of his contacts to help your DS get another apprenticeship maybe even just one day a week with another garage.

Hopefully there could be some people who previously worked for your brother who now work elsewhere and could speak to the boss and take him under their wing for a day or two, especially as they will get some good work out of him.

Maybe agree to the pay cut but put a time limit on it ?

Without sounding patronising , I love to hear of youngsters ,who find normal life difficult for whatever reason , doing well and finding a niche for themselves. My DD works with a lad with autism and she adores him .

Really tough one and a horrible position for you. Surely this must be illegal but to pursue that line risks a huge huge drop in quality of life for your son, in all sorts of ways. This job could make a big difference, not just to his day to day happiness but his wider skill set.

2 ideas spring to mind.

1. separate the finances from your son. He keeps being employed as usual. You, as a loving sister, sub your brother's business by an amount which offsets (wouldn't necessarily have to cover completely) DS's earnings. Of course it totally depends on your circs, but if it's not much money to you it's not totally ridiculous that you help your struggling brother for an agreed, limited period, say 3 months?

2. DS drops to one day a week or does shorter days.

The lack of timeframe worries me a bit. I'm assuming you do believe him about the business struggling? Could it be that the arrangement is not working for him, as MN would say? 'Cos if so, he might well want to protect you both from that truth. But it would be a weird and convoluted way to go about it.

If you decide to go along with your brother's suggestion, I think you need to insist on a time limit.

I agree with HeddaGarbled.

I think given your DS's lack of communication to your brother has probably made allowances he wouldn't allow any other employee, and which can make the job much more difficult - of course he would be obligated to make reasonable adjustments, but given he's non verbal I suspect a lot more than reasonable has been given, especially to secure the job in the first place.

I wouldn't hesitate and take the pay cut. I'd be doing anything I could to help your brother continue to operate his garage. Working there is adding hugely to your Ds's life and realistically it's going to be very difficult if not impossible to secure him paid work in another business.

I think your brother is a really good guy, and your son is incredible! My father employs disabled people from the local centre in his factory, they can be blind, missing a limb, or with mental SN, and he is always fascinated by the way they overcome whatever limitations they have, either mental or physical, as well as their dedication to the work. However, they demand far more support than the usual employees, in time and safeguarding, which is costly. In lean periods, it is agreed with the local authorities that they would be the first to be let go, as the factory needs to keep the more qualified employees, that also support themselves, whereas the disabled employees are supported by benefits and the local authorities. It is sad, but pratical and more sound on a practical point of view, as that is the way you have to keep a company running sometimes. I would let your son keep working for free, so that he can still have an activity and training.

Think of it like this he has a reference at the end of it. It shows that your ds wants to work. He will find something eventually but I wouldn't take him away from a job he loves to do. Leave him to it for now until something better comes along. He probably enjoys working with your brother. Thats what family is about.

I would agree - the independence of working is invaluable for your son. Other options don't really seem to be viable for him unfortunately. Ask for 3 monthly reviews to reinstate his wage.

Another alternative is to suggest a pay cut rather than no wage at all.

Just to chip in, I took on an officially 'disabled' (MH breakdown) person about four years ago. She was amazing, during her time with us she finally came through to 'recovered' - fantastic!!! I would have loved to keep her on full time, but a) I couldn't afford it without financial support and b) she was more than ready for a bigger challenge.

She's now in charge of a therapy unit in nearby BigTown. GET IN! I'm really proud of her.

Persian, people with ASD aren't all the same, just because you know 2 that can volunteer doesn't mean that they all can
I know that not all people with ASD disorder are the same, far from it.

The notion that a person who lacks capacity can't volunteer is what I was challenging as one of the two boys that I know will never be allowed to live independently and has no idea about money either due to his condition but he is still able to volunteer.

I can't believe that because I have challenged this idea you have assumed that I am stupid.

I think your first and probably only priority here is..

What will keep your DS happy, motivated and fufilled as he is now.

The legalities, the moralities of it, those are less important or even unimportant.

So what if it is technically illegal for him to go to work and not get paid - if he would be utterly gutted, bewildered and unable to understand why he could no longer go to the garage and work on cars on those days each week?

Would people REALLY have this guy upset and confused, particularly someone unable to really communicate those feelings or understand them, because legally thats the right thing to do? Its not as if its hurting anyone?

It doesn't sound like anyones trying to con the OP's DS into providing free labour, he's not being exploited here.

I'm wondering if there are any grants available to your brother in law...some grants are given to businesses that employ people who have disabilities etc. Might be worth looking into?

I have an autistic ds and there is no way I would drop the job. Your ds loves it. It gives meaning to his day to day life. That has more value than cash.

Help out your brother ffs.

He is and has been helping out your son by giving him a chance no one else has!

Speak to social worker but suggest reading up also. If your ds is on the books as a paid employee then as someone else has pointed out his proposal is possibly illegal. Then you also have other employment acts that mean your db proposal is illegal as his proposal is discriminatory against one employee.
Just a question maybe SJ your db if he would have asked this if your son did not have Autism. I strongly suspect it would be a no. You have already said he pays less than £100 I can't see how that will save the business. May also be worthwhile talking to NAtional Autistic Society or citizens advice