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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

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Original poster

To think he should be paid for his time?

183 replies

MargotRogers · 26/08/2016 22:26

Name changed as this is very identifying.

DS is 24 and autistic, he's selectively mute, which means that although he can physically speak and understand, he also isn't able to make himself speak.

He's also a mechanic, this is all honestly down to my older brother who owns a garage. DS has always been good with cars, ever since he was little but after helping him apply for apprenticeships at 16, he just kept getting turned down as he can't actually handle people at all.

He doesn't like to be touched, rarely raises his head and won't communicate with anyone.

DBrother gave him an apprenticeship at his garage and then a job for two days a week. As it was his garage, no one bothered DS or gave him a hard time, it was close enough to walk too and I can tell he really likes it.

DBrother's garage is now going through a rough time and he may have to start letting people go, he's asked if instead of firing someone he could just not pay DS for a while until things get a bit better.

He said that DS is the only one that won't be negatively effected. He lives with us, we happily provide everything for him and he does get benefits as well, so he doesn't need Dbrother to pay him and he won't even realise it or properly understand.

Whereas the other people he employs, live pay check to pay check, they rely on the money to pay for their food and rent.

DS is unlikely to ever get another place as nice to work in, he enjoys going there but DBrother can't give me a definite date on when he may be able to start paying him, I don't know what right for DS, I don't want him taken advantage of but I don't want him to lose this job either.

OP posts:

Pisssssedofff · 26/08/2016 23:04

Why can't he volunteer or be helping out a family member ?
Which officials are likely to be interested exactly

mummymummums · 26/08/2016 23:13

I see what Trifleorbust is saying - a person who lacks capacity can't volunteer.

notapizzaeater · 26/08/2016 23:14

Must be heart breaking for you DB to have todo this - tbh I've an autistic son and if this happened I'd ask for a estimated time scale and keep your son working there.

Trifleorbust · 26/08/2016 23:19

Not only do I think hencant volunteer because he lacks capacity, I think it would still be illegal to give someone a choice of working temporarily for free or losing their job. Employees have rights. His rights are no different to anyone else's and it sets a dangerous precedent to agree for him to work for free in a job others are paid to do.

metaphoricus · 26/08/2016 23:19

If your DS is enjoying his job, and it is keeping him happily occupied during working hours, then I think it's not a terrible thing to let him go on doing it for nothing. You have said he gets benefits - so he's not going to starve. You are DEFINITELY NOT letting him down. He NEEDS this life experience. It will help him 'loads' in the future.

I have a 30 year old daughter with significant LD, I would give my left arm to have her days filled with some rewarding work, but it's not to be.
Her LDs are such that she does not even understand the spoken word.
I know that this is rather more extreme than what you are presenting. But.
If your son isn't that bothered about being paid for what he does, and he enjoys what he does, then I see absolutely nothing wrong with letting him get loads of working experience. It will pay off in the end. I'm absolutely positively confident about that. And you have all my best wishes OP.

ColintheCrow · 26/08/2016 23:20

I wouldn't let my ASD son work under these circumstances (although much in the future) If he's able to do the work, he deserves the pay even though he has no value of money. His time and effort ARR valuable.

Original poster

MargotRogers · 26/08/2016 23:20

I do understand what Trifle means, DS can't agree to volunteer as he just doesn't understand what he's agreeing to and he does have a social worker.

I'll phone her on Monday and see what she thinks about it all but I think I'm going to have to let him stay there until Christmas at least and spend the time helping him look for other suitable places, as I doubt DS' wage will change much, it's less then 100 a week, I don't see how that will save anything.

OP posts:

ColintheCrow · 26/08/2016 23:20

ARE *

LittlePaintBox · 26/08/2016 23:20

To be honest, whether he's being fair or not, it sounds as if your son will benefit more in the short term by carrying on there without pay than by leaving, if your brother is determined to save the small amount he's paying.

I agree that cutting his pay is wrong for all sorts of reasons, but looking at it practically, he will continue to have the benefits of employment and work experience.

Maybe he can start to look around for other opportunities for the longer term as well?

queenofthepirates · 26/08/2016 23:22

But your brother has supported your son for sometime-he's asking you your son to return the favour. It's far from ideal but can you imagine the rift it would cause if you refuse? I appreciate your son does make a contribution to your DB's business but family means pulling together sometimes and this would perhaps take some stress off your brother.

Original poster

MargotRogers · 26/08/2016 23:24

'I think it would still be illegal to give someone a choice of working temporarily for free or losing their job' Trifle, I didn't think of it like that, you make a very good point, you can't actually put an employee in that position. I was looking at it from a family angle, DS only got the job because he was family and he was warning us/giving us a choice instead of outright firing him because we're family.

OP posts:

ColintheCrow · 26/08/2016 23:24

His integrity? Why should he work for peanuts just because he doesn't know his worth? My son is 9 and we work in hot wheels cars for treats so a hot wheels car is £1 etc. I wouldn't expect him to work full time on less than the minimum hot wheels rate just because he's autistic.

junebirthdaygirl · 26/08/2016 23:27

As long as your db is being totally upfront l would go with leaving ds there. Its like therapy. He needs it. If he loves working with cars look on it as a hobby. He would be lost without something to do everyday and it has to be doing him nothing but good.

PovertyPain · 26/08/2016 23:28

Maybe your brother has had to cut back on other staff member's hours and has to justify, to them, why your son is working there? If he can say he's working fir free then he's less likely to get flack from his staff.

For what it's worth, if it isn't causing your son or your family some financial difficulties, it might be better to let him stay on as a volunteer. He will be gaining experience and in time this might help him get a job. My youngest is going into her final year at college and I and the other mums are already worrying about our young people's future. They all have SN. I'm just letting you know I understand your concerns.

britbat23 · 26/08/2016 23:29

A business that cannot operate without paying its staff the minimum wage shouldn't remain in business at all.

Indeed it sounds like the garage is effectively trading while insolvent which is illegal in itself.

Volunteering would not be a sustainable solution, and on the part of the garage it is illegal, immoral, and will harm your DS in the long run.

0pti0na1 · 26/08/2016 23:29

I think he should be paid for his time. I'm not sure how it works legally, but how could it be acceptable for someone to work for nothing when others were doing a similar job and being paid? Or to be treated less favourably due to their disability? I'd be looking into what the law says on disability discrimination in the workplace.

PersianCatLady · 26/08/2016 23:29

I see what Trifleorbust is saying - a person who lacks capacity can't volunteer
I am not sure if that is true though.

I know of two youngsters with ASD that volunteer.

Also OP I obviously don't know your DS's situation but there may be schemes whereby your brother can get grants for employing a person with a disability.

metaphoricus · 26/08/2016 23:31

If your DS is enjoying his job, and it is keeping him happily occupied during working hours, and he is doing a 'proper job' then I think it's not a terrible thing to let him go on doing it for nothing. You have said he gets benefits - so he's not going to starve. You are DEFINITELY NOT letting him down. He NEEDS this life experience. It will help him 'loads' in the future - for perhaps getting a job somewhere else at some future time.He will have an excellent reference.

I have a 30 year old daughter with significant LD, I would give my left arm to have her days filled with some rewarding work, but it's not to be.
Her LDs are extreme in that she does not even understand the spoken word,
I know that this is rather more extreme than what you are presenting. But.
If your son isn't that bothered about being paid for what he does, and he enjoys what he does, then I see absolutely nothing wrong with letting him get loads of working experience. It will pay off in the end. I'm absolutely positively confident about that. And you have all my best wishes OP.

ColintheCrow · 26/08/2016 23:32

He go to the local autistic school and gather up a whole workforce. This really dismays me. Just because someone has additional needs... and in many cases fantastic abilities, is it okay to pay them less and take advantage?

0pti0na1 · 26/08/2016 23:32

Also even if your DS might not realise what working for free would mean for him, wouldn't the money from paid work be of use for his future?

AlpacaLypse · 26/08/2016 23:35

Oh dear this is tricky isn't it! One of my nephews is severely autistic and about your son's level in social understanding. He's much younger - but I can quite understand a situation where having a thing he really loves doing taken away from him for reasons he cannot comprehend might be devastating.

If you think your brother is genuine about the financial position, and not looking to have a Golem* relative working for him for nothing, I would let things stand right now. Although I'd also keep an ear to the ground in case a suitable position in another engineering company turned up...

*Using Golem in the sense of a person who will do whatever he or she is commanded, tirelessly and without reward.

PersianCatLady · 26/08/2016 23:35

This is going to sound a little harsh but I don't mean any malice by saying it.

If there is a choice of your son losing his job and pay or a man with a family losing his job and pay, don't you think that maybe it is less severe for your son to lose his job as he already receives benefits to live on but the man with a family would be put in a worse situation if he were unemployed.

J0kersSmile · 26/08/2016 23:36

I don't think it's unfair.

Your dB took him on and trained him up because he wanted to help him and you out. He's now having to cut costs for a while. He knows working there helps ds out and is giving you options.

Plenty of young adults with learning difficulties volunteer for free in places. My cousin 'works' on a farm 4 days a week for free. He's brain damaged due to pre eclampsia and won't ever be able to hold down a job but at the farm he decorates, does woodwork (he made a table by himself and various other bits of furniture), plants vegetables and helps out the staff with the more physically disabled volunteers.

They used to get paid for it as well but when the funding stopped they gave everyone the choice whether to keep going there and not be paid or shut the place down. No one stopped going because they weren't going to get paid anymore as they're carers knew that going there helped their dc whether they got paid or not.

ColintheCrow · 26/08/2016 23:40

This is all ridiculous. I'd rather subsidise my son and buy a wreck of a car for him to work or than let him be taken advantage of and belittled because he's autistic. Of he does the work a fully paid person he should be paid as such.

HeddaGarbled · 26/08/2016 23:41

If your brother had a free choice, he would employ someone who could fulfil all the parts of the job that he needs. He employed your son out of family loyalty and love. That's not to say that your son isn't working hard and making a useful contribution but nevertheless it is unlikely that your brother would have chosen to employ him without the family connection.

Now your brother's business is in trouble. He may have to make people redundant. He could potentially lose his business. He must be worried sick.

He doesn't want your son to work unpaid. He doesn't want him at all. But he doesn't want to pull this rug out from under him and this is his way of trying not to hurt him.

You probably could take your brother to a tribunal for disability discrimination and it's possible that you might win. He's got himself into a really sticky situation out of kindness.

I think I wouldn't talk to the social worker about this issue. I would talk to them about how your son can be supported into work or a work placement unconnected with family. Have you heard of supported internships, by the way? Your local FE college might offer some.

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