Aibu for moving my son into a smaller bedroom

[Summerholsdoingmyheadin]

We have three children and four bedrooms. 3 bedrooms are decent sized doubles. Teenage son has the smallest double but he has an ensuite bathroom. Everyone happy with this. The youngest (one year old) is currently in with us.
Middle son has the biggest bedroom with floor to ceiling built in wardrobes and cupboards. This room is about 14ft by 13ft. He only has a single bed (11 year old). His room is constantly a tip. He takes his ironed clothes and just tosses them into a crumpled heap in the cupboard. He never hovers the room but doesn't want me to do it either. He constantly has reams of paper strewn over the floor and dozens of books, DVDs and food wrappers all over the place. Dirty clothes just pile up on the floor and his wet towels live on the carpet. He says it his impossible to keep the room in any state of tidiness. I have threatened to move him into the smallest room on many occasions so he has less space to keep tidy. I am at the end of my tether with his level of mess. Yes it is his room, but we have 2 asthma sufferers in the house and his dust levels are atrocious. The one year old has food allergies and we are sick of the food and wrappers that we find lying around middle sons bedroom as the baby could have an allergic reaction if he toddles in and picks things up.
I am now at the point of considering moving ds2 into the smallest room as I will clean and tidy it and it is a smaller space so will be easier for me to do.
Aibu to do this? Ds2 thinks this is unfair, mean and tantamount to child abuse

I feel your pain. My 15 year old is like that, but has a tiny room (8x6) so storage is an issue.
However, you say your smallest room is 10x10, so that should be big enough, assuming the storage is adequate.
With hindsight, I'd say get tough now.
Help him sort through his stuff and chuck some of it, then make sure everything that's left has a dedicated home. Tell you'll move his room if he doesn't up his game, school holidays is a good time to start and get new routines going.
And I stopped ironing even school uniform some years ago, and noone even noticed! I did offer ironing lessons, but none of my boys wanted them. So they are crumpled, their problem.
I do think it's important for them to be able to organise themselves - I've failed miserably with my 15 year old, who really struggles with everyday things.

I have helped him tidy it countless times. I keep telling him to tidy as he goes to prevent it getting so bad but he doesn't do it. He knows how to tidy and on occasions where it has become a total health hazard his dad has spent several hours standing over him whilst he tidies it so we definitely know that he is capable of doing it. He will be 12 in a couple of weeks.
We have limited screen time in the past and he just retaliates by deliberately making more mess. Even his personal hygeine is appalling. His teeth are thick with hard plaque despite having them thoroughly cleaned at the dentist every few months. He doesn't wash or comb his hair unless we withhold pocket money and although he showers daily (we insist) he just dodges the water and has body odour constantly.
We have been to camhs over other issues with him and discussed these problems and they concluded that the main issues are that he is lazy.

While he should take some responsibility, he is only 11 and you are his mum and shouldn't let the room get to that point! It's your house and the room is in your house clean the fucker whether he likes it or not. I clean my 11 yr olds room he moans I've put stuff away blah blah blah so I say tough shit keep it clean then.

We have taught him to iron delphinium. Because he literally screws his clothes up before throwing them into the cupboard it is really noticeable that they are crumpled. We leave him be with his clothes most of the time but if we are going to the cinema, bowling etc he has to iron the set of clothes he is going to wear before he can come with us because frankly he otherwise looks so scruffy it's ridiculous. He can actually iron quite well.

I agree with you regina. I'm really tempted to bin anything unnecessary and then move him into the smaller room which I will them clean on a weekly basis. Smaller room + less stuff = easier and quicker for me to tidy. He has had many warnings and I am sick to death of it as is DH.

You are the parent - he is 11 fgs!

Man up and punish him unless he complies with basic house rules.

You are enabling him.

I feel very tentative saying this - and I am NOT criticising you in any way, i cannot stress that enough - but since you mentioned CAHMs I feel I can. Are you sure there are no SNs? The hygiene thing, punishing you for disciplining him, not understanding the danger he's putting his siblings in... it doesn't sound like normal behaviour.

And if there are no SNs then you really have to get tough, or he may turn into a dangerous teenager, or a manchild who expects his wife to do everything etc.

smaller rooms are definitely harder to keep tidy - 9yo dd1 has just moved into our box room and it looks messy with really very little out. so I don't think that would be your magic bullet.

so it's down to finding the right incentive/sanction (I know this is hard with some DC - I have one who doesn't give a monkey's for adult approval). if it was just standard untidiness then it's no major issue, but if other people's health is compromised then he has to get his act together.

He's 11 and chirping about you being in his space???? Wow good luck for the future that's a very cheeky attitude of his. He's a child living in the house you pay for, yes it's his home but until he is rowing his own boat he needs to follow your rules and you need to man up and implement some and make him follow them if he resists. It's only gong to get harder if you don't stamp it out now

He's lucky to have any room to himself.

I shared a single with two sisters. My dc share, my friends' dc share.

It's an American thing for families to live like a flatshare

On a practical level I think your teen will benefit more from having his own bathroom than from having the bigger room, so I would keep the arrangement the way it is. I don't think the smaller room will be any easier to maintain...in fact in my experience the opposite is true owing to the need for organisation as well as tidying.
Besides, your ds2 will simply mess up the en suite as well.

I don't think the solution is to swap the rooms, but to address your son's untidiness to a degree that reaches a compromise for both of you.

I also would NOT be tidying or cleaning his room myself! You have enough to do with 4 children and a home to run,HE does it or he doesn't leave the house or his room till its done once a week it must be done before he can go about his day.

No diagnosed SN special agent, he is in the top 5% for intelligence based on standardised tests. He has always been top of his class for most subjects. He doesn't do homework though or if pushed makes minimal effort and hands in scruffy brief work. He understands the danger he is putting his siblings in but claims to just forget that he had food and wrappers in his room
The reason for being under camhs was that he went to school and threatened to harm himself when told that he had to Tidy his room and have a shower. He then told camhs that he just said it because we were doing his head in and were expecting him to do stuff that no other children at school have to do . He really thinks tidying up is something that no child has been expected to do since 1974!
I do need to man up.

It's your house.
Move his room if that suits the family as a whole better.

Okay two things: if it does look like that picture - there is a lack of storage. Getting a good cupboard system would help. (as would getting rid of stuff).
Second could he have ADHD? Or similar. Is he good at starting things but bad at completing them? Have your spent time tidying with him? Does he have his own wash bag? His own bin? Do you have regular "tidy up" time, when everyone does jobs?

If he doesn't wash I would also be concerned about depression.

he has been told often enough and not listened. I would change his room.

seenyourarse he would quite happily sit in his room in his own filth and not go anywhere all week rather than tidy it.

OMG, come down tough now regardless to his feelings. My SS is 21 and is a grown up version of your son. Not his DM's fault in fairness, he just does what he pleases. Says all the right things but then changes nothing. I no longer say anything so that I'm not classed as interfering, which to be fair I'm not accused of. Please nip it in the bud, ban him going out etc. He's almost 12 so your house rules go!

If it is really like that picture I would say the first thing you need to do is declutter. Why does an 11 year old have so much crap!

Does he go out and socialise with friends? Assuming the issues with the room, not caring about his personal hygiene etc aren't signs of a bigger issue IMO that is way too much for an 11 year old to sort out alone and keep organised.

Once cleaned new rules. No food, daily inspections. Does he need better/easier storage. Even hooks where his jacket/school bag lives helps or a snazzy laundry basket accessible in his own room. Insist on daily showers and teeth brushing. He needs to get into good habits.

If he doesn't do chores around the rest of the house give them to him too. Make him responsible for the dishwasher or bins.

If rules are broken he loses privileges - xbox/phone/going out with friends etc. If he retaliates by getting worse, then up the punishment. Keep on top of him daily so it doesn't get out of control again. He has fallen into bad habits and needs help establishing good ones while he's only 11/12.

I wouldn't tell him if it continues then he moves to smaller room, as that's a punishment that would never end as it would be difficult to move him back it he did eventually keep things tidy.

I thing the cleanliness is a red herring TBH.

1. He knows and understand the serious danger he's putting in siblings in - as in life threatening danger - and doesn't give a fuck.

1. He is manipulative. Threatening self harm to get him out of tidying, purposely making a mess when his parents take away screen time.

1. His attitude. Everyone else can pick up after me. Zero respect for his mother.

1. Hygiene, he could get sick himself, not to mention his teeth could end up being a lifelong issue for him.

1. The actual room.

I think these are all issues that need to be addressed oP, but as my DC are younger I'll admit I don't know what advice to give, just I know a lot of the boys in my high school who were either bullies or criminals (I didn't go to a naice school) were like this when we were 11.

Is he good at starting things but bad at completing them? Have your spent time tidying with him? Does he have his own wash bag? His own bin? Do you have regular "tidy up" time, when everyone does jobs?

He is good at starting and finishing things as long as they are things he wants to do. I have spent many hours, days and weeks tidying with him. He has his own wash bag sitting empty, it has never been used because the floor is more convenient ( or any gap in his cupboard). He has much more more storage than that picture (the picture was just to demonstrate mess levels).
His room has huge deep alcoves. In one alcove is a floor to ceiling wardrobe with tails and shelving. In the other alcove is a floor to ceiling cupboard with shelves. Both the wardrobe and cupboard are built in. In addition he has a book case, a DVD case and some plastic lidded boxes under the bed (usually middle of the floor),

Having RTFT I really think you should just go ahead and move his bedroom, no last chances - sounds like this has gone on too long now. Have you asked him why he's got such a big aversion to having good personal hygiene?

Rails, not tails

I don't really see how a smaller room will help - he will still have the same amount of stuff, just crammed into a smaller space. If he doesn't even have cupboards in the new room, how will you exhort him to use them? Your (understandable) feelings of outrage about his misused privelige need to be separated from practicalities and how best to address the actual behaviour.

I am unsure whether you would be moving anyone else, or giving him the smallest and as yet unused room?

"he argues that it is his space and I am invading his privacy"- well, he needs to understand that he is a minor, so privacy is a privilege, and it is your house, so your rules. But he does seem to have issues beyond the usual 11 year old boy thing. Wet towels and mess is hardly unusual in the age group. Is he finding it hard to approach puberty - with all this neglect of his personal hygiene? has he always been like this?

I would get a stairgate for his room to keep the baby safe. If you are an electronics wizard and can work it so that the Wi-Fi only works when the gate is closed that might work!! Does he spend ages on computer / gadgets? If so, I would get the Wi-Fi controlled so that it is only enabled on his devices when you say so - and that is when his room is presentable.