To turn your attention to this article **Trigger warning: Child abuse. Title edited by MNHQ**

[NedStarksHead]

After a long and stressful debate/argument on FB, I'd like to turn your attention to these articles....

If you're one of the people who say "murder them all, they're all scum, they should be shot" then just read these and re-think.

Use different wording. A child molester is so different to a pedophile.

http://www.salon.com/2015/09/21/imaapedophilebuttnotaa_monster/

http://www.virped.org

How are they criminals Heatherplant when they haven't broken the law?
You can't break the law through your thoughts.

Multiple times I've fantasised over what it would feel like to smash my boss' face in with a brick or a vase - I'd obviously never do it but I've seriously thought about what it would feel like.

Does that make me a murderer? A psychopath?

You become a criminal when you step over the boundary and break the law.

Like PP's have said you can't police people's thoughts.

I think it's dangerously legitimising to refer to paedophilia as a 'sexual orientation', when what it really is is more akin to sadism or psychopathy.

In order to find sexual gratification in fantasies of molesting children, you have to not care (or not care enough) about the physical and mental pain and long-term harm you would be inflicting. The thought is still more arousing than it is repellant to you.

Now you're saying a paedophile might choose never to act on their fantasies because of their empathy (or consequences, or whatever other reason), but the fact that they still find sexual gratification in those fantasies at all means they are still severely lacking in that same empathy.

I find it very difficult, therefore, to raise much empathy for them. However, I would very much support treatment if it was found to be effective in reducing the likelihood of offending.

Keep I think it's more complicated than that. Not all pedophiles are turned on by hurting children. Some believe it will be mutually pleasant ( yes they're ill and yes its abhorrent) some know it would be awful for the child and this adds to them feeling appalled about their thoughts on it.
It really is not a black and white thing other than whether it should ever be acted out of course.

A paedophile is just as bad as a child molester
What? The thought = the deed? That's ridiculous.

The Salon article may irritate people but the premiss is reasonable, to me: some people with this sexual preference never act on it because they recognise that to do so would be desperately wrong; such people should be supported to prevent them offending. This seems so obvious to me I can't understand why anyone would argue against it. It is pragmatism, not approval or necessarily even empathy.

That non-active paedophiles exist is also a powerful rebuttal of the crap that active abusers trot out about not being able to help it, or it being a natural and valid sexual orientation that they should be able to act on, etc.

You can keep on stressing that certain thoughts have no place in society though. I think that's the right thing to do. There is no room for framing it as "a different sexual orientation" or "alternate sexuality" here. No "progressive" breaking down of barriers other than to provide treatment for any mental health issues. As Werks said, a powerful narrative of victimhood of people who fantasise about abusing others is being created and it's dangerous. It is being equated to being gay. And you seem to have glossed over that he has been very willing to associate with other paedophiles and indulge those thoughts, as Werks said.

WindPowerRanger nailed it.

A lot of posters here seem to know what pedophilia is. Currently all evidence points to it being a medical condition and there are currently medical trials underway to treat it. But it needs people to self refer.

I have occasionally thought about spanking noisy children who are spoiling my quiet cafe moment (for non sexual reasons). If I had that feeling everyday, it was uncontrollable and I actually thought I was about to do it I would hope I could get treatment to prevent me from doing so.

cbigs With respect, there is no way I can believe any adult in this day and age who would deny knowing the pain and long-term harm that child molesting causes. They may say they believe the child enjoyed it or wanted it (I've heard that one myself, while I was bleeding and crying), but I do not believe for one second that they actually believe this themselves.

If they acknowledge the hurt and trauma involved and are appalled, then that is one step better in the empathy department. But if the appalled feeling doesn't outweigh the 'I like this' feeling, then they are still severely lacking.

How awful growing up to discover what actually turns you on are children. I don't believe people have any control over it than people that are gay or like big boobs, nice legs etc.
There are people who are attracted to amputees and disabled people too and they are also made to feel like sexual predators.

BTW I have worked with sex offenders and all of them were sexually abused as children and then gone on to abuse someone themselves. Only 1 of them was actually a paedophile in that he got sexually aroused by children.

I also think there is a difference between intrusive and/or fleeting thoughts that are felt as unwelcome and made as unwelcome as possible (ie. distraction sought), and thoughts that may be unwelcome but are nevertheless indulged for pleasure (ie. fantasising, reading erotica, looking at images).

Someone mentioned PND in the thread, but I would say there is a huge difference between a mother who has painful/distressing thoughts of harming her newborn and a mother who would look up images of murdered babies in order to feel pleasure. A paedophile is closer to the latter.

I'm with you, op. Still reading thread but will post properly when I'm done

FYI I am NOT supporting having sex with children.

Around the world the age of consent varies from 12 to 21. So its hard to say that having sex with a 20 year is child rape in one country but in another its ok at 12.

KeepitDown: there is no way I can believe any adult in this day and age who would deny knowing the pain and long-term harm that child molesting causes.

You need to be a bit more specific when you claim ANY adult, because clearly its NOT all adults around the world.

You despair at the lack of empathy and understanding?! Are you for fucking real?!!

Have you been abused? No? Then shut the fuck up. They don't deserve any empathy whatsoever. My life has been RUINED by a vile excuse for a human. You're wasting your empathy on the wrong people

You need to be a bit more specific when you claim ANY adult, because clearly its NOT all adults around the world

Sorry, I'm not too sure what clarification you're actually asking for. I'm not referring to any generic adult, I'm specifically referring to "any adult in this day and age who would deny knowing the pain and long-term harm that child molesting causes".

Not read the full thread but this was a story line in the programme "The Missing".

seahorse106 Thu 04-Aug-16 19:34:10

BTW I have worked with sex offenders and all of them were sexually abused as children and then gone on to abuse someone themselves.

At least one previous poster who has worked in this area has highlighted studies that most claims of childhood abuse from perpetrators were not true, just another form of manipulating those around them. Did you find independant verification for those claims of abuse?

I'll save my empathy for more deserving people.

cbigs acting on your desires makes it assault. Knowing it is what you desire and how wrong it is is not assault

I didn't say that having those desires was assault. I said that what makes paedophilia not a "sexual orientation" was that those desires automatically involve the concept of assault, and that this is what makes those desires "deviancy" rather than "sexual orientation".

The fact that this particular example of "intrusive and persistent thoughts about harming vulnerable others" involves a) sexual contact and b) children appears to cloud this issue in a very strange way. And I am not quite sure why.

Well, actually I do have an idea .... the "paedophile as victim" narrative is working.

I don't think we would see any request to understand or empathise with this man if he were having intrusive and overwhelming thoughts about raping women in parks. Nor do I think we would be trying to juggle language into concepts that separate the desire from the deed like, say, "biasmophile" and "rapist", and how we should all try and understand "biasmophiles" and how they suffer with their urges and how hard it must be to not commit the deed they are compelled to do.

I suspect, for example, you might think twice about writing: "if my adult child told me they had a persistent and overwhelming urge to assault elderly women in wheelchairs, I'd be devastated for them and know this most likely meant at best a very sad solitary life and at worst let's not even go there."

Yet you are happy to write that when it involves sexual desire for children.

My sense is here that you have unknowingly already bought into the victimhood line here, the narrative that these people are indeed "suffering", and it is lessening the reality of what these urges actually are and mean in your eyes. These people are not victims of anything but their own deviancy.

You can make a similar argument to this man's about serial killers: "the overwhelming urge to stalk, torture and eat this teen's brains with a teaspoon is too great and I am suffering under the burden of it. Please understand me and empathise with my plight! I am a victim too!"

You know, it gets to the point where you have to say, mate, this is utter bollocks. And I am not falling for it.

Well to be honest werkz I frequently work with people who have thoughts about raping people, hurting others, assaulting the elderly harming their own kids etc that's part of what my job entails actually and ofcourse I feel the same empathy! And ofcourse id be gutted to hear any of my children were struggling with such thoughts who wouldn't??
But I think it's much easier to see pedophiles as evil than anything else so people do. It isn't black and white and I'm not on any pedophiles 'side' about anything but I do have the strength and ability to see its complicated they aren't all evil and to feel like that must be shite. But we can differ in our opinions on This of course and that is fine.

I haven't read the thread through.

As someone who was sexually abused as a child I have wondered if there were non offending paedophiles and I think they should get help. Even if it's only to save 1 person from what I went through then it has to be tried.
However, as this has happened to me, (but I'm sure it's a general consensus) I would definitely NOT trust this guy or any non offending paedophile around my DD or any of my nieces or nephews.

What this guy seems to miss is that abuse DOES affect the victims. It didn't affect him badly (so he says) but others are massively affected. I am unable to trust people easily, I am shy, my go to thinking is that someone is bad until I know differently, my relationship (even though amazing) isn't what I would want it to be. I don't get enjoyment out of sex like I want to but have it because I know my DP likes it an needs it for him to have the relationship he wants (he in no way forces me). The guy who wrote this has pretty much downplayed the abuse. His reaction was to feel sorry for the abuser. How about the victim that thinks about it daily and who's whole future was shaped by this action of the a user

Werks Completely agree! You just articulated a lot of my thoughts that I was struggling to get into words.

Paedophilia has been likened to:

-homosexuality (reasonable expectation of mutual, loving relationship)
-attraction to amputees (reasonable expectation of mutual, loving relationship)
-attraction to "nice legs", etc (reasonable expectation of mutual, loving relationship)

Paedophilia is the glaringly odd one out in all those categorisations because it does not involve a mutual, loving relationship. Although I'm sure many paedophiles would love to convince people otherwise (and are attempting to).

Paedophilia is actually closer to:

-sadism (sexual gratification from another's pain or fear)
-necrophilia (sexual gratification involving another person's body, with their complete degradation/inability to consent)
-bestiality (sexual gratification from raping/abusing animals, who cannot consent)
-rape (sexual gratification from exercising power/control over someone without their consent or sometimes ability to consent)

The acts are all (rightfully) criminal, and the thoughts that lead to them are (rightfully) condemned, particularly if those thoughts are repeatedly and deliberately indulged for pleasure.

I find it incredibly disturbing that some people appear to be attempting to slide paedophilia from the second category into the first. Raise awareness/funding for crime prevention, sure. But trying to sway public perception of what paedophilia actually is and should be categorised as (not a fucking sexual orientation) - dangerous and sickening.

I agree peppa, I would not want this man around my children even though I can imagine if I had these thoughts it would be awful.
This is why it's so complex. And I think it shows huge awareness on your part to see that them getting help would in the long run help potential victims. I'm very sorry for what you've been through.

The problem is OP, so many people here seem so incapable of logical or mature thought, they haven't been able to process the point you are making.

There are, of course, people who cannot help their thoughts and wish they could be any other way. It would be heartbreaking to realise you had those thoughts and not be able to change that.

I don't have sympathy for anyone who is a child molester, but a paedophile who cannot help it and would never act on it should not be forced underground and ostracised. They should be helped, if indeed any treatment or therapy is effective in those cases.