AIB an U-ly bad parent?

[deliverdaniel]

How well behaved are 'normal' children? I just can't work out if my kids are normal for their age, or if their behaviour is unusually bad and I am a shockingly bad mother and it's really starting to get me down.

We have two boys, aged 5 and 2 (nearly 6 and 3) and our lives regularly dissolve into complete chaos. The two year old is a real handful, I think probably on the extreme end of normal. He runs away from us as fast as he can go- often towards danger- eg the road (finds it hysterical) with me sprinting to catch up. If I turn my back for a few seconds at home he is unrolling the loo roll/ spraying water everywhere/ taking all the books off the bookshelves/ destroying his older brother's beloved lego creation etc etc . He is usually sweet with other kids and can share nicely and take turns in the right mood but in the wrong mood will push and shove other kids or sometimes hit. He goes into this wild mood several times each day.

My five year old is not as physical and can be very sweet but he has HUGE tantrums about things pretty regularly- eg refuses to put his shoes on in the morning and has a massive angry tantrum, snarling at everyone etc/ usually two or three big strops every morning before school about something like getting dressed/ putting his breakfast stuff in the dishwasher etc. He will be so rude and tell us to 'go away' etc. It often happens when the little one starts running wild. Then he starts running wild too (egged on by his little brother) and they both start running around the house yelling madly and throwing cushions on the floor etc (not breaking anything major- just causing chaos.) Neither of them will calm down when I tell them to, or apparently listen to me at all and I feel as though I've totally lost control.

My mum obviously thinks that they are the worst behaved children ever. I am so embarrassed when she visits about their behaviour. I don't know what to do. I praise good behaviour/ set limits/ enforce consequences (usually time outs) / give them lots of attention/ limit treats/ sugar etc. They sleep and eat well get exercise and have a good routine. Is this normal kid behaviour or am I doing a terrible job? Please be kind- I really am trying my best and sometimes when I read things where people talk about 'terrible parents- should get their kids under control' etc etc, I just feel devastated and so ashamed and don't know what to do.

Any thoughts/ advice?

Sorry, just to clarify, at 2 and 5 how do you know for sure they don't have SN? Have you had either of them assessed?

I would just say follow up on EVERYTHING. It will be hard at first but they're only behaving that way because your strictness possibly disappears after the first telling off or something (I don't know this obviously but you're asking about taking back control so I'm making assumptions). It's about being absolutely transparent about what's expected and ensuring that it happens. Loads of parents will talk about warnings or rewards and you'll just have to find your way there. As a teacher it drives me batty when parents feel too embarrassed to sanction their kids in front of me. PLEASE go right ahead .

MsJudgemental No- sorry I don't know for sure that they don't have SN but they haven't had anything diagnosed and our paediatrician (we live in the US so no HVs here) doesn't see any signs of anything etc etc. So no reason to think that they do IYSWIM- but I guess always a possibility.

I have similar aged children to you and have found making the most mundane things (like brushing teeth, putting on shoes) into a race seems to really work. As much positive talk as possible... 'Let's see if we can beat the world record for eating the most peas today...' etc
May not work for you, but certainly works wonders for my two!
Your DCs don't sound particularly unusual in their behaviour though so don't be too hard on yourself. Do you know what the 6 yr old is having a couple of tantrums a day? Any particular trigger?

*nearly 6 yr old!

Enidblyton1 thanks so much for your kind words. Weirdly my older one HATES races, and becomes totally and utterly stressed out if we ever suggest one. I don't know why. I can imagine that working with my little one when he's a bit older though. The tantrums generally tend to be about us trying to get him to do stuff he doesn't want to do- eg get dressed/ shoes on etc. He absolutely hates getting dressed- i have no idea why! he also has tantrums when things don't go his way- eg his brother chooses the TV programme, or he perceives that his brother is getting something more or better than him. (he loves his brother usually and is very sweet wtih him but on hyper alert for anythign that is 'not fair')

getting dressed - could try laying clothes out in a person shape in the floor then timing him to get dressed then next day he has to try and beat his time.

I don't think the behaviour sounds that bad although undesirable, it's mostly within the spectrum of normal for their ages I'd say, but maybe the frequency isn't?

Also sounds like the older ones tantrums are to get attention away from his brother so I'd tackle younger one's behaviour first. Personally I don't like naughty step etc, I try to use natural consequences instead as it means more and makes sense. Don't overreact to shouting and screaming - better to ignore it. Watch your younger one like a hawk and don't let him destroy your older boys things or other stuff in the house. Be cool, calm, and in control at all times.

Also avoid situations that are likely to set them off eg does he always run off when he's bored?

I definitely wouldn't do a sweet per day. A 2 year old is way too young to understand that what he does at 9am impacts on what he gets at 6pm.

How much time do you get to play with them?

I think remaining positive and consistant makes a big different. Plenty of praise for the good stuff and remain strong on the bad stuff. Easier said than done I know. My ds was very much like yours. He does still lose it occasionally and it always seems bigger and badder than the other kids I see. But I can get him back on track reasonably quickly as long as I keep my cool. He's 6.5 years. A year ago he was very much out of control. Things are much better now. I also used 123 magic.

when mine were that age and we had lots of trouble at mealtimes & bedtimes, I decided to let them write down the rules. we got a page & wrote out 5 house rules (e.g. no throwing indoors) of which they suggest some and I suggest some. then we decorate the page & put it up on the wall.

once the rules are in place & written down, the children were much more inclined to obey them (with timeouts in place if they didn't).

thanks- I like the idea of writing down the rules. And htat suggestion from PP about writing lists of 'good' and 'bad' beahviour with some silly suggestions thrown in the bad section for fun. I think especially my older one would enjoy doing that.

Just a thought, but are they getting enough sleep? I always find our guys act up more if the bedtime routines have been slipping a bit.

Ok have read your latest update.

Firstly they sound totally normal to me.

I would do the opposite of a race then. Allow PLENTY of time for getting dressed so it's not a rush - like 20 minutes. Don't nag but tell him once, clearly and succinctly, what he needs to do. Be neutral and in control. Tell him you will leave him to it. Come back after 5-10 minutes and see if he's done it. Acknowledge if he has "I see you've put your trousers on". Read How to talk so kids will listen for more ideas.

Also make sure you have time for your eldest to do things with you that are specifically for him, no ds2 joining in or distracting.

Getting dressed: I've alwyas let them getting dressed with whatever they wanted. Just ensured that the clothes available were suitable for the time of the year.

Have you look at this book 'How to talk to Children'. That sort of approach worked well for my two dcs.

And this one here too about sibling rivalry as it seems to be a big trigger for your two dcs.

I think natural consequences work best, so for example, if DD doesn't get dressed when asked I calmly tell her we are leaving in 10 mins and she will be going in whatever state of dress she is in. She always gets dressed then.
She used to really suffer from tantrums, I felt really sorry for her as I don't think she wanted to be in the situation, I think she found it upsetting being out of control but didn't know how to get out of it without losing face. I used to sit by her and ask her to calm down enough to tell me what the matter was so I could help her, as I couldn't help her until she told me what the matter was but I couldn't calm down for her, she needed to do that bit herself and then I could help her fix the problem. She has the odd wobble now and I tell her to go and calm down in her room for then call her down to talk about it. I think the key is to let them know you want to listen to them and help, but they need to calm down enough to let you ifyswim.
The 2yr old sounds normal to me. I think if he throws books on the floor, he needs to pick it up etc. As for breaking his brothers Lego, as I say pretty normal I'd concentrate on the aspect of respecting other people's things, not making people sad, and a simple hug and say sorry. Then see if there's a way he can help his brother fix it, passing him the pieces etc. I would also say to the older DC, you are his big brother he's impressed by what you can do and probably wishes he could do it too! Could you show him?

You sound like me! I have two 'spirited' sons - a 5 year old and the youngest has just turned 3. I put a lot of the behaviour down to having two energetic boys together - they seem to be a lot more physical and destructive when it's just the two of them and no friends or their girl cousins around to help temper their behaviour. I've not heard of 123 Magic so will try that myself. But things that work for me: 1. When it comes to school hols, weekends, after school etc plan your days carefully so that you get out of the house as much as possible. My friend always says that boys are like dogs and need to be 'walked' twice a day. 2. I find lots of over the top positive talk in a cheery voice works wonders, makes mundane tasks more exciting and they are more willing to get involved e.g "Lets get ready to go out! Go and get your shoes and run back for a high five! Hurray! Now find your coat and run back for another high five!" All said in a Cbeebies TV presenter kind of voice. It gets us out of the door or ready for bed at least!

I think it's worth remembering that tantrums, shouting, being angry or upset etc - it's not "bad" behaviour. It's an expression of how they feel.

I would hate it if someone told me off or put me in isolation for feeling angry, upset, frustrated, exhausted, sad.

Give your older son a list of jobs he needs to do and let him decide on the order. Eg: ok, you need to get dressed, put your shoes on and eat breakfast, which would you like to do first? Then give him a stop watch preset with a count down. 15 minutes to eat breakfast followed by a sticker for a job well done. Then a big, positive 'ok, what is our next job? Getting dressed, great! How many minutes shall we put on the clock? 10? Brilliant! Off you go then... etc. Your elder son is engaging you in a battle for control. It isn't that he dislikes getting dressed, he just doesn't want to be told what to do. Give him some control over his actions and you will see improvement. I don't think it's SEN as much as it is being strong willed and lacking the emotional maturity to deal with being a kid. Be prepared for 'I don't want to do any of them'. In which case you sympathise. 'I know, I don't want to have to do x,y and z either, but, sometimes we have to do the boring bits before we can do the fun stuff, like seeing all of your friends at school. I'll give you a few minutes to decide which job is first'. Then walk away. Let him come to you.

I agree with not getting into battles about getting dressed. Timer set and if you're not dressed you go as you are. Dd by the skin of her teeth got dressed and both her and ds1 have one to the car in no shoes but only once. The threat thereafter was enough.
Stickers and marbles can work but you can't leave it until the jar is full. It needs to be more immediate than that. Ds1 is the only one of the three who really needed a reward chart. It was broken down into small treats a day with a larger one like a comic or something at the end of the week. He got stickers for portions of the day and with so many at the end of the day he got a treat. I stole an idea off his teacher at the time and had a box of plastic tat party bag stuff and the odd little sweet for the daily reward.
In the beginning I made sure he got a reward and gave stickers reasonably freely for small what we're normal behaviours but heaped them with praise. Ds you got your shoes on super quickly, you sat at the table so nicely etc. To show him that the treats were really going to happen. If they don't see it quickly it becomes a pointless thing with nothing to aim for.
He is 10 now. Still a challenge at times and it's hard work at times keeping cool and being consistent but he knows if I say it I mean it now and it's much easier to ha flee it before it happens now.

We have visual list with pictures for good behaviour -green side and bad behaviour - red side

thansk everyone.

puglife i agree with you that the feelings themselves obviously aren't bad behaviour, but surely the response to them/ how they deal wth them might be? Ie- crying obviously isn't bad behaviour but yelling at me that he hates me / throwing things etc would be?

I find that very often the difference between children who behave and those that don't is the parents tone.

You have to sound like you really, really mean it.

And I don't mean shouting. A low, firm tone with a serious "I mean it" look is very effective.

They also need to know that you'll follow through on threatened consequences.

Everyone behaves at my house. Even the kids no one else will host because they are so badly behaved. (My scary Mummy reputation proceeds me)

AnnaMarlowe I agree. How do you develop that tone though if it doesnt' come naturally? Is there a youtube video? (I'm serious!) Thanks!

deliverdaniel practice!

Try it out in the car when on your own. Or in front of a mirror.

It's not about being mean. It's about being firm and sounding in charge.

I also find that getting up close to the child and on their level helps. There's no point telling "put your shoes on" from across the room over the telly noise when the kids are facing away from you for example.

Or saying in a "nicey, nicey" uncertain tone "please put your shoes on for Mummy".

Make sure they are looking at you, and paying attention. Nice brisk firm no nonsense attitude "shoes on now DS and meet me at the door with your school bag".

Mornings seem to be a flash point for you. I have twins when they were little I found the follow made the morning routine easier:

Everything laid out the night before (uniform, bags, shoes, lunches, breakfast)
I got up and dressed before them.
They get dressed before going downstairs.
Calm atmosphere (ie no TV/iPad)
Clear short instructions.
Warnings "two more minutes and then shoes on"
Structure - same routine every day if possible.

It's hard when they are little. It gets easier I promise.

I'm going to put this here for you to have a read:
salicylatesensitivity.com/info3/
Some people are very against the idea that certain food substances can affect mood, but I'll just say this - a friend of mine's DS3 behaved very like your 2, she was at her wits' end until she tried eliminating high salicylate foods from her DS's diet - 2 days later, he was a completely different-behaviour boy.

So it might be worth considering - especially if there are particular veg and fruit that your boys like more than others (broccoli and apples, for e.g.)