AIB an U-ly bad parent?

[deliverdaniel]

How well behaved are 'normal' children? I just can't work out if my kids are normal for their age, or if their behaviour is unusually bad and I am a shockingly bad mother and it's really starting to get me down.

We have two boys, aged 5 and 2 (nearly 6 and 3) and our lives regularly dissolve into complete chaos. The two year old is a real handful, I think probably on the extreme end of normal. He runs away from us as fast as he can go- often towards danger- eg the road (finds it hysterical) with me sprinting to catch up. If I turn my back for a few seconds at home he is unrolling the loo roll/ spraying water everywhere/ taking all the books off the bookshelves/ destroying his older brother's beloved lego creation etc etc . He is usually sweet with other kids and can share nicely and take turns in the right mood but in the wrong mood will push and shove other kids or sometimes hit. He goes into this wild mood several times each day.

My five year old is not as physical and can be very sweet but he has HUGE tantrums about things pretty regularly- eg refuses to put his shoes on in the morning and has a massive angry tantrum, snarling at everyone etc/ usually two or three big strops every morning before school about something like getting dressed/ putting his breakfast stuff in the dishwasher etc. He will be so rude and tell us to 'go away' etc. It often happens when the little one starts running wild. Then he starts running wild too (egged on by his little brother) and they both start running around the house yelling madly and throwing cushions on the floor etc (not breaking anything major- just causing chaos.) Neither of them will calm down when I tell them to, or apparently listen to me at all and I feel as though I've totally lost control.

My mum obviously thinks that they are the worst behaved children ever. I am so embarrassed when she visits about their behaviour. I don't know what to do. I praise good behaviour/ set limits/ enforce consequences (usually time outs) / give them lots of attention/ limit treats/ sugar etc. They sleep and eat well get exercise and have a good routine. Is this normal kid behaviour or am I doing a terrible job? Please be kind- I really am trying my best and sometimes when I read things where people talk about 'terrible parents- should get their kids under control' etc etc, I just feel devastated and so ashamed and don't know what to do.

Any thoughts/ advice?

[Clandestino]

Firm rules and stick to your guns. If you tell them "tidy up your desk or what's on it goes into the bin" then it goes into the vin. A week off tablet is a week off tablet. No excuses.
We use positive encouragement a lot but we are firm when it comes to discipline.
DD is and will always be an only child and we don't want a spoilt brat ruling the house.
And it helps even in situations when something bad could have happened. We were leaving a beach recently with a hotel adjacent to it. DD walked beside me when she suddenly decided to catch up with her Dad walking ahead, just as we were passing the exit of the car park and a car was just rolling out. DD was in her own world again and didn't spot it but all I had to do was to shout STOP and she froze. This has been drilled into her since she was a toddler and it pays out.

[Imaginosity]

I have two boys who sound kind of similar to yours. I follow all the parenting advice on managing their behaviour and they eat and sleep well and get plenty exercise etc.

I think a big part of their behaviour comes down to their personalities. They're very active, very into bring boistourous, enjoy being mischievous etc.

Also, when they are together they get excited misbehaving - they tend to feed off each other and encourage each other to do things they otherwise wouldn't. I find them quite well behaved when they are alone. Much easier to manage them one to one.

We have large parts of the day where things go very well and they play nicely. Then we have many times where I'm tearing my hair out like when they're physically fighting or grabbing each others toys and roaring at each other.

When DS2 was about 2 everytime I took my eyes off him he'd be up to something. I'd notice it was nice and peasecful and think 'uh-oh!' and find he'd be somewhere like at the bathroom sink blocking it by filling it with tissue paper.

Its definitely getting a bit easier now they are getting close to age 7 and 5 but they are still harder work than other children.

I often found people would give me advise and tips that worked for their children - I found this annoying as often I would have tried anything they suggested already - but it would never be as effective with my children.

I always try very hard to make sure my children don't annoy other people - but if people want to judge me as a bad parent if they see my children out in public having a tantrum or running off then I couldn't care less.

I do think some people have children that are easier to manage and have more compliant personalities. It doesn't always come down to parenting.

[BugPlaster]

I think this sounds the tough side of normal for you. Mine are young 5 and 2 and we have 'wildness' before school, getting dressed, and if one screams/tantrums the other will too.
My 2yo refuses reigns but will hold on to pushchair as we walk. He knows he will be forced to sit in it (albeit screaming) if he doesn't. That's for his safety so sod any looks.
Latest thing is the 2yo absolutely letting rip when I put him in car seat. Tried letting him get in himself but he just climbs all over the car seats.
It is very stressful, OP, I really know how you feel. Some of the tips given by pp are worth a try - thanks for starting the thread.

[puglife15]

Throwing stuff is bad behaviour yes - shouting "I hate you" or "go away" no, although horrible for you. The danger with reacting strongly to shouting stuff is that it's one of the few things you can't literally stop, so if he knows it gets a rise out of you he will continue to do it.

Throwing stuff - you can (and should) calmly, gently as poss, but physically stop him.

Agree with a pp that you must believe what you're saying and follow through. That's another reason natural consequences are good, because it will stop you giving rash consequences you later regret eg banning TV for a week for knocking over Lego.

[madcapcat]

This sounds very like my Dn. Nursery always had to take an extra member of staff if they were going out anywhere because she would leg it at any opportunity
. Very very fast and ignoring all shouts etc. Her older sister would at least pause to consider if you yelled no or stop; the younger would just get faster. What helped for us was realising that she needed several bouts of really vigorous physical exercise outside each day to let all the fidgety out. Along with really consistent handling from all the adults in her life. As pp has said praising the positive, rewards that didn't require waiting for a week and a really structured bedtime routine. good luck j

[blitheringbuzzards1234]

Whenever one of our family started to play up Mum would walk away saying firmly/loudly/sometimes shouting, "I'm not listening to you when you behave like that!" It's amazing how (fairly) quickly they'd quieten down because their audience had disappeared.
You need to show the little buggers who's boss - be firm. If you threaten a punishment carry it out or they'll know they've got one over on you.

[NotCitrus]

Sounds like mine at that age. Once the younger was 3 and able to reason a bit, it got a lot better. Get a Little Life backpack for the 2yo. We did loads of road safety exercises - walk along, when I say Stop, 2yo had to stop and wait or it was hand-holding/buggy again. Loads of praise for good stopping.
Ds was motivated by TV. So wanting TV on a school morning? As soon as you're dressed, including shoes. I also encouraged role-playing as the best way for them to play together more - though dd now wants to be Darth Vader...

Once the 2yo can communicate better they're more interesting as well as easier.

[UserNameAngst]

My 2 boys are similar ages; some months ago we split their bedtimes so the eldest has an extra half an hour with us which he calls "special time". My youngest takes up a lot of attention in the day and this change has really helped my eldest.

[mathanxiety]

1-2 times a day for them to go hog wild is not ok, even if your DH thinks it is.

Don't get involved in any sort of daily tangible reward for good behaviour in the form of sweets or dessert or whatever. The reasons to avoid this are:

1. They will argue and wheedle and split hairs and claim good intentions or blame the other one;
   
2. DS2 needs immediate consequences and restitution of damage if necessary, such as picking up items thrown around or knocked over, with your help;
   
3. DS1 needs intervention for tantrums in the form of talking him through transitions or providing emotional scaffolding (visual aids) to give him a sense of control and a sense that things are predictable.
   
4. You want to establish a situation where your smile and nod of approval are what they work for, not something external.
   
   Sweets just address symptoms and not the causes of problem behaviour.
   
   If you use a longer term reward system (maybe for DS1) use a much smaller jar for the marbles. Then it won't take as long to fill it.
   Think a small jam jar (Smuckers smallest size). A long term reward system might recognise efforts to compromise, kindness to DS2, co-operation. Demerits would be for inappropriate expression of emotions (hurtful speech towards you instead of trying to say 'I feel...'). For a week that seems to have gone well overall, give a bonus for 'a good week'.
   
   I like the idea of a visual representation of what 'good' and 'bad' behaviour looks like.
   
   I agree with Whatsername's approach for your DS. Use a kitchen timer. He can battle the timer - you say 'It's time to get ready. You have 15 mins'. Set the timer and walk away. If he still kicks up and throws a tantrum about shoes or pants or putting dishes in the dishwasher, try shrugging and letting him live with the consequence of not dressing or putting on shoes - goes to school without pants or shoes, goes to the supermarket, to the park, wherever. It's especially important, as Whatsername says, to walk away and let him come to you. When he has to come to you to give an account of himself, that shows him that you are in charge. So resist the temptation to remind or check. You can give a two minute warning and that is all. Don't comment on progress. If he hasn't appeared when the time is up then you need to go and get him and say 'What a pity you're not ready. We have to go right now all the same.'
   
   Dishes can stay on the table at his place if he won't put them away. He gets his lunch served away from everyone else (because his place isn't cleared) and same goes for dinner, until he brings his things to the dishwasher. Or you can say, 'Would you prefer to put them in the dishwasher before or after you get your shoes on?' That way, it's definitely going to happen. He only gets to decide when.
   
   It seems to me there is an element of sibling rivalry at play here. That needs to be defused. In general, try to reinforce the idea of each one having his own separate things. Make sure DS1 has his own toys in a place just for them. Same goes for DS2. Don't make them share things with anyone if they don't want to, either at home or in the park or at the beach/pool. Watch DS2 like a hawk. DS1's Lego needs to be out of reach and out of sight.
   
   Try to spend time with each one. You need to distinguish them from each other. Don't call them 'the boys', if you're guilty of that.
   
   Equally, try to create events that are a lot of fun where they are together, with you or DH in charge. Maybe a cupcake or cookie decorating session, or pumpkin carving, or leaf raking, or making a popcorn tree garland - something simple where they can sit on either side of you. Incorporate high fives and group hugs and the concept of the family as a team into your lives. The team can fold laundry together, or pick up toys - the team needs a purpose so you need to find team activities. Boys like being in a little tribe or team and feel great loyalty to it. Remind them 'we are a team here' when things are falling apart at the seams.
   
   Maybe get DS1 involved in something like T-ball (maybe wrong season) or some other sport, preferably one where you have to wait your turn and where play is very controlled (unlike soccer for instance). T-ball and baseball are great because you get a few turns to bat before you're out, you can be out while running the bases through no fault of your own, and it is a very co-operative game. It teaches a huge range of social-emotional skills on top of all the catching and throwing and hand-eye co-ordination. Martial arts can be great too for the same reasons, especially for a child who can be energetic and who gets frustrated easily. It is highly structured, there's an element of ceremony, there are clearly demarcated levels, and DS would have to fit in at his level. Something just for DS1 himself, where you and DH and DS2 can go and cheer for him would be great.
   
   Your older DS comes across as a child who doesn't yet manage transitions well. This is normal for someone his age, though he could be doing better. Transitioning from one school activity to the next is exhausting for children in kindergarten and first grade. They are usually better at it by second grade. Getting dressed is a big change from being in pajamas, and watching a show DS2 wants to watch is a big change from sitting back and focusing completely on whatever he was watching or sitting back in his own little world waiting for whatever comes on next. Children of 5/6 can be really absorbed in a tv show and any interruption can be almost intolerable. So can any demand from a sibling that makes watching a favorite show unlikely.
   
   positive-discipline.ca/locus-of-control-power-with-children/ Take a look at this and explore all the links. Make sure your older child isn't overloaded with directions, tasks that must only be done one way.
   
   You could create a visual aid for him showing the clock face in fifteen minute increments for the morning from the time he wakes until you all have to leave for school or daycare or wherever you go. Use a whiteboard and ask him to fill in what he wants to do for those times - get up is always first, then brush teeth/get dressed/eat breakfast is his choice, followed by his choice for the next events in the sequence. He chooses, and you can create a visual. Then leave the visual in his room.
   
   Find out what TV programmes each one really likes to watch and record them if they conflict, or figure out if the broadcast schedule will allow each one to see what interests him. Write a chart of TV times, showing when each one's favourite comes on. Point to the clock and the chart if there is an argument. Children of 5/6 will accept the almost magical authority of those things but they will get locked in a power struggle with you.
   
   Just from the POV of initially reining it all in and establishing that you are in charge though:
   You and DH have to make them pay attention.
   
   Use1-2-3 Magic. An almost 3 yo old is easily old enough to get it. BUT - you absolutely must be consistent and your DH must be completely on board too.
   
   If you have that American speech tic where you have a rising inflection at the end of a sentence, so you sound as if you are asking a question or looking for validation from people you're speaking to, stop it immediately. If you end directions or announcements to your DSs with the word 'OK?' as if you are asking their approval, stop that too. Tape yourself speaking normally and try to judge how convincing you sound.
   
   If you're all out together, then one of you is the designated minder of one specific child. DS2 shouldn't fall through the cracks therefore.
   
   Your tone of voice is crucial. Also crucial is consistency. If you say no, then don't change your mind. If you make a threat, carry it out.
   
   If on reflection you think you have been over-stern or over-strict then apologise to them the following day or before bedtime that day (not immediately or soon after the event). You can talk about feelings when you apologise. Tell them you felt very, very angry or frustrated and it got a hold of you. Do not ask them for a hug when you apologise. Be sincere but not mushy. You can give a hug when they apologise, but you do not need a hug from them when you do. If they offer one accept it and thank them.
   I agree that there are no 'bad' feelings.
   Don't make a meal out of discussing feelings though. We all have them. We all learn to deal with them.
   
   What your children need to understand is that, given that everyone has feelings, there are acceptable and unacceptable ways of expressing them. For unacceptable ways of expressing emotions, frustration, etc., you need to have consequences. Acceptable ways of expressing emotions are words, crying, going to their 'miserable spot' to frown their angries out if things get really bad. You need to encourage them to use their words, and you need to tell them their feelings are ok but reinforce that they have to choose better ways of expressing them.
   
   You can also encourage them to problem solve, offer a fair deal or compromise to someone they are in conflict with, and seek win win situations (older one much moreso than younger one obviously but he is still a bit young for this) so that they start to look at life from someone else's pov. This is a long term project.
   
   Remind yourself that this is for their own good and that you are teaching them something they need to know. Be ruthless and get your act together. DH has to get his act together too. Do you want order or do you want to face this for years? This is not something that comes naturally to people any more than effective management of employees in a business does, or managing children in a classroom. It takes planning and dedication and a good deal of cunning.

[mathanxiety]

*DS also needs reminders of 'what happens next'.

[mrsvilliers]

Erm sounds normal to me too 🙈. Bar the tantrums for the 5yo and 2yo behaviour to other children it's pretty much what we have here. If 2yo does too much running or it's busy she gets put in the buggy


Agree with pp about sibling rivalry exacerbating behaviour, only thing that keeps me going is a friend who battled with her younger brother for years. Now they are the best of friends so am gritting my teeth and getting on with it...

[BlueLeopard]

I had a runner too. I live in an urban area and was terrified of him running out into traffic. I tried everything but when I'd run after him and give out to him he thought it was funny and part of the game. I really was at my wits end - he was about 2.5 or 3.

My colleague shared a tip that finally worked. If they played up when out and about, she just dropped what she was shopping for and went home. So with that, I did a supermarket dummy run with my boy- getting stuff I wanted but nothing I absolutely needed that day - on the way there I explained that he needed to hold my hand/ the basket at all times, and if he was good we would get a smoothie afterwards, but if he was naughty we would go straight home with no treat. Predictably he ran off, I called him back and firmly said "if you run away again, we will go straight home". A few minutes later, he did run off so I picked him up and drove him home screaming all the way that he would behave.

The next dummy run, he ran off and I carried him as far as the car, when he begged to behave. So I gave him a chance and he was perfect for the rest of the outing. Now a couple of years later all it takes is a stern look and a "if you keep doing that we will go straight home" and he usually cops on because there is always a treat at the end for him. That could be throwing coppers in the guide dog collection, or half an hour on the swings, or a little toy like a lego man, not always foodie treats. It might not work for all kids, but it is very effective.

I also found giving a count down 10 minutes, 5 minutes to bedtime /getting out the door helps a lot with my lad.

[Emmaroos]

I agree that this behaviour is outside the normal acceptable range. I think you have had lots of good suggestions but ultimately you have to demand respect and your kids have to learn that if you tell them to do something and it doesn't happen, then the consequences are dire.
We have 2 children (6,nearly 7, and 4). We also have a lovely sort of au pair who has been with us for 2 years and the children behave much worse for her. Not because we undermine her or don't back her up, but because she doesn't demand respect from them and she gives in because she over threatens and then can't follow through, and even when she is cross her demeanour doesn't change all that much.
I strongly agree with those who have cautioned about bribing for good behaviour. We decided from the start (and we tell them) that they have a great life. Toys, lovely schools, a nice bedroom, occasional TV, weekend lunch at Pizza Express, story with Dad at bedtime, playdates etc etc. These are the rewards for normal good behaviour.
We have a range of punishments - the 6 year old is certainly old enough to be sent to his room. Occasionally, 3 times altogether I think) ours has been sent to bed without his dinner for being vile. We are pretty hot on not rewarding bad behaviour. If they are crying/throwing a tantrum (rather than because they have hurt themselves) no attention at all, and into a room on their own if possible until they stop or into the garden with the door closed if that's nearer and the weather allows. Other punishments that have been very effective: we do a family lunch at out most Saturday. The scoop of ice-cream after is a big treat because we don't give the children sweet things to eat at home. Not saying thank you, or generally unacceptable behaviour results in no pudding, and no problem with one having and the other not. We have done the dreaded extraction often - one child is behaving badly in public, especially somewhere they want to be (park, restaurant, playdate etc) then you have to be prepared to immediately end the nice thing and bring them home. Obviously that works best when 2 parents are around. All the obvious things of no TV etc. If we are getting ready to go somewhere nice and one isn't cooperating then he stays at home. Bad behaviour when eating (playing with food or making a deliberate mess means immediate removal of that meal. Throwing books would result in the loss of those books from his room for a while (no books for bedtime story? No story. How sad!).
I'd be most concerned about the almost 3 year old bolting. I would bring him straight back to the house every time he did that and I'd let him see you are properly angry. And strap/reins (especially if he hates it) will help him get the message, but I wouldn't rely on them long term because you need a child you can trust to stop when you say stop.
I think the best thing is that you can see that there is a need to change how your kids are behaving, so that make you definitely not an U-ly bad parent! The really rubbish parents are the ones who don't notice or care that they are raising kids with no respect for others.

[KC225]

I could have written your post - I have twins, very active both bolters. Reins made a great difference. My Health visitor said she wished more parents would use them as children stay in buggies a lot longer than years ago. Get the reins with the little backpack and let him pack a car or a small figure, drink etc. As he gets older he will object but if he runs off, I would let them hold the rein until the end of the road if they didn't run off, if they got too speedy, it went back on.

Some good suggestions on re boundaries etc. With regards to the older one and getting dressed, I found my daughter wasn't a morning person (my son was and still is an early riser) so I wake her a bit earlier and say she could have five minutes. I do this three times and she is much more amenable. Also, I agree with laying out the clothes.

Getting them out come rain or shine is massively important, if only to let off steam. Let them run in the park. Meet your mum in a park, playground or soft play, we used to be first in before it descended into kiddie chaos. I know she's your mum but you don't need to be undermined at this stage.

Agree with the poster who said you sound like a great mum who is open to question and change. Remember, it's just a phase. You will get through it.

[StepAwayFromTheEcclesCakes]

the key I think is consistency, you have already tried a number of approaches but say they got bored. I assume you then gave up? this is the worst thing to do, find an approach and stick with it, they might lose interest but if you stick to your guns about it they get used to it and know you mean business, if you give up too they simply learn that you don't really mean it. so calm and consistent is the best approach whatever strategy you choose to use. good luck, been there, got the T shirt, dvd, book, game etc etc if its any consolation my terrible 2,3,4,5,6,7, onwards is now a very civilised, polite and caring 23 year old.

[QueenJuggler]

Have a look at getting them involved in some kind of sport that involves structure and discipline. Taekwondo is amazing for this - it gets some of the ya-yas out, but also teaches them how to harness energy in a positive way. Plus teachers tend to be 100% intolerant of any poor behaviour.

[KimmySchmidtsSmile]

OP they sound like my two youngest
It's wearing, isn't it?
Am place marking and will read all the tips here later after wrangling my rug rats. Reins are not used much in Germany but they all think know I'm a Rabenmutter anyway so I might as well.
Wishing you well. math have only skimmed it (am on borrowed time) but bloody good post.

[youarenotkiddingme]

What's the older one like with noise and crowds etc? Does his behaviour change in different situations?
I ask because hating getting dressed and sudden changes in behaviour could be sensory related.

[Moomichi]

In a rush but don't want to read and run. Have you looked at their diet and their sleep routines? Only asking because dd2 was/is awful when she's tired. My girls both napped up until they started school and even on the weekends when they first started!
Hope you find something that works for you. Xxx

[dangermouseisace]

I really really REALLY recommend the book The Parenting Puzzle. I did a course based on it and it changed our lives. It recommends reward based discipline and giving kids responsibility appropriate to their age, but doesn't just give you the 'how' but the 'why'. Also gets you to reflect on your own experiences as a child and how they can affect your parenting.
I really cannot recommend it highly enough- much better and easier than super nanny!

[applesandpears33]

I'd second the back pack type reigns. I bought the more traditional type and they had a very short strap, whereas the back pack type had a much longer one. Also, the kids were much happier about putting them on, especially the ones that are shaped like a cuddly toy. The wrist strap type reigns were useless as DS1 worked out within minutes how to undo the wrist strap. DS1 was a bolter and was small and fast for his age. It does get better though - he is now 11 and is good at sport and athletics.

[deliverdaniel]

Wow- sorry because of the time difference I left the thread to go to bed, and have just woken up to all this amazing advice. Thanks so much to all of you for all these great ideas, and esp to mathanxiety and emmaroos for such amazing detailed posts.

Can anyone give some more examples of natural consequences? I get what you're saying about the getting dressed thing- ie if you donn't get dressed you are going out as you are , but if I'm totally honest with myself I would never send my child to school naked/ in pyjamas etc (maybe that's wrong, but I knwo that I wouldn't follow through as I think it could compromise his safety/ humiliate him etc etc.) Any other examples of how this works? (not being facetious here- just genuinely curious.)


DH is definitely on board- he's not minimising it- just wanted to give a fairer picture when I told him what I'd written.

And thanks so much for all your kind supportive words and not giving me a really hard time. I genuinely appreciate it

[StarryIllusion]

I won't have violence or rudeness towards me and when I shout they bloody listen but the rest sounds pretty normal to me. It's an exhausting age. My eldest is 2 atm and everything is grounds for crying. To hear me putting suncream on them, you'd think I'd finally snapped and was murdering them. My neighbour asked if they were ok last week!

Trick is to say everything like it's not a question. Don't raise your voice, just say it like of course you expect them to do it, why wouldn't they and then they just end up doing it without thinking. Then if you do have to shout it has more impact. I so rarely shout that when I do it's like shock and awe tactics.

But yeah the histrionics over putting shoes on and the gleeful destruction is pretty par for the course. What about a wrist strap if not reins? Bit more of a big boys option but still gives you control.

How about a daily run around the park? Might get rid of some energy. I tricked mine into posting an empty envelope every day for nearly a month back in may. He was so hyper that I wanted to make him run so I kept giving him empty envelopes and going post this for mummy! Off he shot down the road to the post box while mummy ambled behind.

[puglife15]

www.janetlansbury.com/2015/07/how-to-stop-your-runaway-toddler/

Op I just came across this and thought of you.

[puglife15]

www.parents.com/parenting/better-parenting/positive/disciplining-with-natural-consequences/

This is quite a good read on natural consequences.