To not understand why parents encourage music

[angryeumigrant]

when classical musicians earn so little.

The real money in music is in music production, composing, DJing, club nights, breakthrough bands, etc. Even that is not what it was in say the 1980s. There is next to no money in classical music performance.

I'll all for children learning to play an instrument for pleasure, read music, music theory, etc. However, I do wonder why parents would not actively discourage their children from spending too much time playing an instrument during GCSE / A-Levels. I think it's one of those things that is considered a "good thing" without it ever getting looked at objectively.

I would much rather my child was composing electronic music or sounding a computer game than reaching a top level playing the violin, because frankly the former is not only more creative but also more career-enhancing.

Plus, I play clarinet, saxophone and trombone (very well) and most other brass except Tuba (mouthpiece too big) and cornet/trumpet (mouthpiece too small). I also sing. I would have loved to learn the piano and hope our child wants to. My DH plays guitar, bass guitar and drums.

I loved being in band. The feeling of us all playing a part and it coming together to sound amazing.

LockedOutOfMN: Thanks for your post. We're not in the U.S. and, frankly, given the numbers, continental European universities are of more relevance to people than the U.S. The U.S. university system is not the model that most of us would aspire to.

As regards what universities "on the whole" are looking for, I'm pretty certain that they are looking for hard-working individuals with a good basis for study in their relevant subject areas. That's why they look at GCSEs and A-levels and relevant subjects, etc. I note that you didn't mention this at all.

What's dispiriting is that the things that you claim universities are looking for are all things that result in university admissions favouring those from independent schools over state schools, even though the statistics show that on average those from state schools that are admitted get better grades than those from independent schools admitted to the same course.

Music isn't necessarily the pastime of the middle classes. My state school funded free music lessons for all students.

HeyRobot Mon 18-Jul-16 00:16:20

"It's quite a middle class position to say that musicians make very little money. "

Precisely what I was thinking. Statistically speaking, most people are going to end up in jobs that pay relatively little. Very MC to imagine that no children of yours, or of your friends, or even random strangers you talk with over the internet are going to be of their number.

"I'm pretty certain that they are looking for hard-working individuals with a good basis for study in their relevant subject areas. That's why they look at GCSEs and A-levels and relevant subjects, etc."

Exactly. And in the UK an instrument is regarded as a subject in its own right, with its own grading/exam system, and regarded as something that forms a good basis for study.

because true music performance lies in the soul not the wallet. I don't understand why parents refuse to help their child follow their dreams. Surely happiness is the important thing in such a short life.

I'm so glad my parents didn't actively discourage me from spending a lot of time practising my instrument while I was studying for A levels. It was the one thing that kept me sane. And I did well enough in my exams to get into a very good university, so clearly the hours of practising didn't hold me back. I was good at music, but not good enough to become a professional musician. But that wasn't the point. I'm quite successful at what I do now. And I still love to play music. YABU.

angryeumigrant I don't disagree that students at independent schools have greater opportunities to do things like playing a musical instrument or participating in the Duke of Edinburgh. I was merely stating that over and over again Russell Group, 1995 Group and other highly sought after universities' admissions tutors have told me firsthand (and repeated the same in generic correspondence) that these are among the things they look for. I would also argue that every student has the same opportunity to raise funds for charity.

Apologies for not mentioning academic achievement in addition to the extracurricular side. I thought this was a given, sorry. When students apply to UCAS, they complete an application form, including a personal statement and their teacher's reference, where they provide information about extracurricular activities, etc. as well as their academic statistics.

Also I must apologise for any lack of clarity, the whole of my post was talking about U.K. universities with the exception of the small part at the end mentioning the U.S.

Did you not see the first series that Gareth Malone did? Did you see the transformation in those innercity teens? And how singing empowered military wives? And improved morale and teamwork in all those different workplaces? Music gives you life experience. Why would you not encourage your child to do it?

Why emphasis on music?

Humans have been making music in many forms for millennia it is part of our culture world wide and hugely beneficial both socially, academically, for wellbeing amongst many other things. Stories were shared through song and rhythmic beats.

Get yourself into the middle of African drumming, amongst a choir in a church, a gig where everyone sings along. that feeling you get, I've yet to find it replicated in any other way but through making music and sharing it.

Agree Cory, I had friends at school whose parents were both musicians - very middle class and much better off than my family. Luckily there were opportunities for us to have music lessons and we didn't miss out because of lack of money.

Most of the musicians I know don't stop because of the pay, but because the travel is hard on their family. It's why a lot go into teaching.

I had loads going on outside of school during my GCSEs and A levels. I don't think it's healthy to only focus on a career plan at that age - you don't have any idea what your chosen career will be like at that point.

Top Universities look at A levels. They don't count UCAS points from music exams. Indeed the best Universities don't ask for points, they just ask for A level grades.

I'm pretty sure that they don't really give a monkeys about D of E and all that stuff either.

I think the OP has been given a hard time and agree with much of what she says.
Yes, music can have all the positive qualities that have been mentioned but the life of a musician can be dark and depression does figure quite prominently in the musicians I'm familiar with and that's quite a lot.
It is poorly paid and you spend a lot of your day practising or if unfortunate enough teaching.
I can't admit to knowing the admission criteria for all universities but the ones I've looked at don't accept UCAS points on their music courses. They expect a certain level but don't accept the points gained from the exams.
I think for many people who don't take up a career in music it can have many positive effects many mentioned on here, but it isn't a bed of roses for those who live for their music.

Top colleges have hundreds of AAA, AAAA and AAA* applicants. They are much of a muchness. Something has to set you apart. I agree violin won't be their No 1 criterion, but it can help.

My DC learnt to play instruments to a reasonable standard- they all got to grade 6 - but then GCSEs came along - and they stopped with the instruments and haven't picked them up since. My thinking in encouraging them was to broaden their knowledge, give them the opportunity to become accomplished if it so took them (it didn't really - they never fell in love with it), and also an avenue for socialising in school orchestra, bands etc. I think they had some fun along the way. They won some cups in local competition, played at school concerts etc and at one drama camp because my DS could play the piano, he played on stage while the other children danced. I never thought of it as something they would take up professionally although I suppose that might have happened if they had really fallen in love with it. So they have given up now but at least they have the basic skills to take it up again as a hobby later if they want to. I learnt as a child too to grade5 and also gave up at O level time but I don't regret learning and I still like to play a little tune on the piano sometimes ( not very well though I have to admit but fun all the same)

Looking back at the original post -OP was specifically talking about exam revision. (Not how highly successful people in any industry get MH problems). My parents let me choose how to structure my revision and my music practice. If I wanted to do well, they told me it was up to me! (clearly not middle class )

Would you also tell your DC not to do any sport/clubs etc and not let them use that as a motivator for themselves to get revision done? (I still use that skill now, tidy kitchen = )

In my opinion, no-one does extra curricular activities with a view of doing them for a career! They are for fun and gaining skills - be they technical or social, learning discipline, determination and having the freedom to fail or succeed. This is what's useful to them forever more.

Also people do still learn to play musical instruments as an adult! I know of several. And both head and deputy head at DCs primary school play and are therefore able to accompany children in assemblies. And my cousin in law plays in a band in his spare time, friends play in concert bands, sing in choirs - it's fun and you make lovely friends.

With regards to the mentally unstable composers etc- high performers in any industry have MH problems. My DH has a career in computer programming in the city and there's a lot of burn out.

Also people do still learn to play musical instruments as an adult! I know of several.

I'm really glad to hear this as its my challenge for this decade

It just makes the world a more beautiful place. Why else do we draw, sing, dance or cook beautifully?

This is one of the many articles linking arts subject to decreased stress and increased resilience particularly in relation to GCSEs

I loved being in band. The feeling of us all playing a part and it coming together to sound amazing.

^This^

It was county youth choir for me, rather than band, but the rush when you finish is amazing. I sing, and play guitar, and have played violin and double bass. Music & physics are so intertwined.

Your opinion sucks balls, OP, to put it bluntly. Classical music is wonderful in so many ways- educationally, opportunistically and career wise. Many, many modern rich types in the music industry started out on the classical route. But even if it's not that, it still wonderful.

I just don't like the idea beauty and joy have to somehow be justified in economical terms. Why bother endlessly renovating the Natural History Museum, might as well put in in a prefab or, more economical still, put it online. Why should anyone draw, no money in that. Why play a sport like hockey, much more money in football. Lovely wine? You'll get as satisfyingly pissed drinking ethanol diluted in water.

Some of the most musically talented peers of mine from uni have ended up as doctors and serious IT people. Maths, music and IT go hand in hand.

Plus it's great to have a drinking buddy who can knock out a few tunes to have everyone howling along.
Tennis was a big thing in our mining valley. Not terribly MC but it did produce a stupid amount of successful people.

It's a great extra income playing music, or teaching. I get £50/hr or more for playing, £20/hr for teaching. Could get more, especially for weddings. It's also quite rewarding to do either.

Personally also am a trained music therapist, amazing job. Salaries for (admittedly hard to come by) NHS jobs can be £30-40k.

Not too terrible. None of this possible without learning music!!!

But as people say, it isn't entirely about money. So many lives are enriched through music.

How about the joy of making music? I play the violin, to a decent (grade 8+) but very much amateur standard. I have continued playing into adulthood because I adore being in an orchestra and playing with other people. It is the most satisfying feeling in the world and working a very stressful job our weekly rehearsals are often some of the only times I manage to switch off enough to forget about work.

My (pretty decent) amateur orchestra is made up of around 70 people, the youngest is about 23 and the eldest just turned 90. We put on 3 concerts a year which are well attended by friends, family and local people - our audience usually tops 300. The vast majority of us in the orchestra have non-musical jobs although there are a few music teachers and our conductor is also a music teacher. I have made so many good friends of all ages, music has a way of bringing people together in a way that few other hobbies do.

I'm trying to imagine my life without music that was commercially non viable as a fulltime career...and I'm not even musical. The vet college that I went to in Dublin wouldn't have had its brilliant Christmas carol service with trad session at the end. There would be no singing in pubs from the middle of Dublin to the living rooms of gaeltacht areas in Donegal and Connemara.
The great pipe bands of Scotland and Ulster wouldn't exist.
Church choirs wouldn't exist.
School choirs wouldn't exist.
The young farmers I worked for as a mixed practice vet in Wales wouldn't have gone to choir practice after work.
We wouldn't have had the fab band at our wedding or been able to listen to various friends occasionally singing or playing the guitar round the fire afterwards.
We wouldn't have have done ceilidh dancing (very badly in my case) at other family members' weddings.
You would never get that spark of surprise and happiness when a friend that you didn't know had a note in their head meanders over to the piano in the hotel bar after a function and plays beautifully.
That hush would never gradually fall over the pub, or the packed living room, or the listeners round the bonfire when somebody good- really good- starts to sing or play.