To not understand why parents encourage music

[angryeumigrant]

when classical musicians earn so little.

The real money in music is in music production, composing, DJing, club nights, breakthrough bands, etc. Even that is not what it was in say the 1980s. There is next to no money in classical music performance.

I'll all for children learning to play an instrument for pleasure, read music, music theory, etc. However, I do wonder why parents would not actively discourage their children from spending too much time playing an instrument during GCSE / A-Levels. I think it's one of those things that is considered a "good thing" without it ever getting looked at objectively.

I would much rather my child was composing electronic music or sounding a computer game than reaching a top level playing the violin, because frankly the former is not only more creative but also more career-enhancing.

My dc is a child prodigy and expected by many to be a leading name in their field at an early age. We have only encouraged by providing resources, never asked to practice or even take exams.
Dh is a professional musician, perhaps some of the talent comes from him?
My dc got 10% in maths test and 20% in English, although did quite well with languages having worked really hard at all subjects.
Some musicians are good at Maths, some people who are good at maths/ languages are also good at music.
It doesn't mean that a good musician is naturally good at Maths or anything else other than music.
We have other dc who are good at sport and have these as hobbies.

Some parents encourage their dc to play music to broaden their horizons, to help motivate and stimulate the brain for other subjects.
some are mc but just as many wc children are encouraged from parents and/or school.
It's a lovely thing for them to do if that's what they want. If they ask why not?
It's wrong to make them carry on if they don't want to practice, I've met parents who have used all sorts of bribery, cajoling, gentle persuasion. Result dc resent parents, give up at first opportunity they can, and worst of all put off music for life. Such a shame.

To add to what others have said, many universities, especially in UK and US, are impressed by those who have practised a musical instrument for a number of years and reached a good level and / or participated in a group. There are also UCAS points for achieving the highest grades in music exams.

I would also repeat what others have said that it's very relaxing and fun to play music, however badly, by one's self or in a group and it's something you can carry on at an amateur level into adult life. Personally, I know quite a few adults who are sad they never learned an instrument when they were younger (and perhaps feel they are too busy, poor or old to start learning now).

Hmmmmmmm. 50% of my genetic code came to me from someone who spent their life working in music and is world renouned. (Not a classical musician but that's where it came from.). They are the most intelligent, grounded, committed person I know. Not a millionaire, but certainly didn't starve.

They met the person that gave the other 50% while they were studying (classical) music. Another exceptionally capable and intelligent person who went on to have a career not in but enriched by music.

Both give a huge amount to the world and lots of people in it.

As children we were exposed to classical music, took up instruments and still play in our 30s. One plays an unusual instrument and can often pick up a few hundred quid a time playing at weddings and even Royal events. Not so shabby. That money has allowed them to see rather a lot of the world.

The process started for me before birth, as it has with my own daughter. Once you have music in your life it doesn't leave. And classical is the foundation of it.

So YABU.

Surely the DailyFail has enough with the Angela & Tom drama?

OP, as an argument against prioritising classical music at the expense of composing electronic music (as mentioned in your OP), your list of 10 famous musicians with MH issues could hardly have been more ill chosen.

findingaway65: "Increase IQ, English and maths skills. UCAS Points" Do you have any evidence of this? I see lots of people say this but there doesn't seem to be any empirical evidence. Correlation is not causation.

I think for the reasonable portion of the middle class learning a musical instrument is a class marker. It is something that marks one out as part of a tribe.

Yes OP many classical musicians don't earn that much and I'm lucky to have the career that I do.
Would you really discourage your child from learning an instrument for fear that they might make it a career choice?
My DC are primary age,my hopes for them are that they find something they have passion for,whatever that may be.

LockedOutOfMN: You say that "many universities, especially in UK and US, are impressed by those who have practised a musical instrument for a number of years and reached a good level and / or participated in a group. There are also UCAS points for achieving the highest grades in music exams."

First, I'm certain that apart from music-related courses there are no UCAS points awarded in music exams.

Secondly, as regards UK universities being impressed by those who have practised a musical instrument for a number of years and reached a good level and / or participated in a group, how is that the case? Oxbridge interviews? Yes, having been there I can believe that, although usually looking more for good voices for the college choir than for instrumentalists. In any case, what you say could be read more as an illustration of class bias than as a justification for it.

It's incredibly important for constructive emotional expression. I was encouraged to sing at home and then my (working class) DM found the money to send me for lessons - I went on to study music at uni. I wouldn't encourage anyone without the skin of a rhino to go into the music industry, but I sing when I'm happy, when I'm sad, when I'm totally at my wits end - and it does no harm to anyone, and it's good for my health too as it gets the blood a bit more oxygenated. My (also working class) best friend used to play double bass as a kid, and she's gone on to study the links between lack of creative expression and depression - sight reading also helps with maths.

Fast Fact:

If you Google 'goady fucker' it asks you 'Did you mean: goat fucker'

First, I'm certain that apart from music-related courses there are no UCAS points awarded in music exams.

A basic Google search demonstrates that you're wrong, OP. Here.

corythatwas: "Beethoven, Robert Schumann, Pyotr Il'yich Tchaikovsky, and Sergei Rachmaninov are perhaps the most famous composers who suffered severe bouts of depression, but also included in that gloomy company were Orlande de Lassus, Carlo Gesualdo, John Dowland, Hector Berlioz, Mikhail Glinka, Anton Bruckner, Anton Arensky, Hugo Wolf, and Charles Ives. Berlioz, Schumann, Tchaikovsky, and Wolf tried to kill themselves and failed, but depressives Jeremiah Clarke and Peter Warlock committed suicide, the former by gunshot, the latter by gas asphyxiation." (www.allmusic.com/blog/post/classical-composers-and-their-maladies) Happy now.

It's pure joy. The piano is attractive, too and one more surface to park the gin bottle on.

LBOCS2: Your basic Google search demonstrates nothing except that UCAS attributes points to certain music qualifications. It does not show (since it is not the case) that those points count for the purpose of getting a place on a non-music-related course. Don't try to be too smart!

Are you really suggesting we shouldn't invest in one of our biggest industries that creates jobs and puts millions in to the economy?
And yes, there is plenty of empirical evidence that music enhances and supports learning of many different subjects, (maths, reading, history, geography, languages) and helps the brain to make synaptic connections that aren't otherwise made - which is why a lot of people who can afford for their children to take up a costly hobby support them to do so.
I'm a professional musician - I don't make very much money at all, but that's mainly down to me not being physically up to working many hours. But I've taught in independent schools, and taught a famous family. I'm not middle class, in fact, far far from it. I learnt my instruments as a way of coping with severe childhood trauma and psychological stress. Without it, I would be a fraction of the person I am. A music college lecturer once told me he taught in prisons, and it was the most appreciated activity the prisoners did, as it gave them an emotional outlet, a focus for their creativity, a purpose and an enjoyment free from guilt.

Your comments are clearly such a load of bollocks - and it's quite insulting that you think I've wasted my life on something that just 'marks out my tribe'. So as my site name suggests, do Fuck the Fuck Off and Fuck Off Some More - until you know what you're talking about, because you clearly don't.

Am I the only person imaging the OP trying to wow people with her woodworking skills at a party and getting all huffy when the band turn up

Hi, angryeumigrant, I work with Year 12 and Year 13 students on their applications to university and therefore I liaise regularly with the universities one-to-one, in fact, I've just returned from visiting two universities with other schools' higher education "counsellors", as they like to call us. Over and over again for the good few past years, we hear that these universities - on the whole - are looking for students with one or more of the following:

• playing a musical instrument to a good standard and / or in a group
• playing sport to a high standard and, in particular, captaining a team
• Duke of Edinburgh
• significant charity fundraising efforts

The students hear and read the same things at uni. open days, fairs, etc.

In my own experience, students who've done these things not only get offers from their first choice unis but get the grades they need, and go on to enjoy uni and do well there.

This is only in my own experience and from the unis. I've spoken to.

With regard to UCAS points, it's historically been 75 points for a distinction at Grade 8 (the highest grade), 70 points for a merit at Grade 8 and reducing down to 5 UCAS points for pass at Grade 6. However, for September 2017 entry, this may change.

In the U.S., students can earn quite significant scholarships and financial awards for their musical prowess both before they join the uni. and while they're there. The U.S. universities I've had significant dealings with are also keen to see applicants with a musical background (as well as sports' players and other hobbies that show dedication and other qualities).

FTFOAFOSM: Clearly music helps you to be an articulate person who can make your point without swearing. Thanks for your contribution.

Are you having a laugh OP?

No, not really angryeumigrant. It is estimated that c 10% of the population will suffer from MH issues at one stage or another so it is hardly surprising that there are musicians among them.

I know several perfectly ordinary people in ordinary boring jobs who have also suffered from bipolar disorder or severe depression- but that doesn't make it into the news. I have also known several suicides, again among non-arty people.

As your original list showed, even people who compose electronic music (as recommended in your OP) are not immune.

Obviously any environment that is rife with drug use is going to increase the dangers of MH issues exponentially. But if we look at musicians I am not sure the greatest dangers from a wild lifestyle are to be found among viola players.

This may have been said but:

Listening to classical music can:
- Lower your blood pressure.
- Relieve your stress levels.
- Help fight depression and manage pain.
- Improve your sleep quality.
- Make you more at ease and open with yourself.
- Promote honest communication of your emotions.
- Enhance mental alertness and memory.

nextshark.com/studies-reveal-some-interesting-benefits-for-classical-music-lovers/

Also, there are some places that play classical music in public locations because it lowers vandalism.

Chippednailvarnishing

The point made was that it provided UCAS points. It does. If an academic institution asks for Xno of ucas points, and does not exclude those achieved via music (or general studies, or BTEC qualifications, or any of the myriad other ways of achieving UCAS points) then presumably they would still apply. Certainly when I went to university there were a number of universities which weren't too fussy about where the points came from when you applied.

Your statement was that you didn't believe points were awarded in music exams, which is not the case. Had you said that they weren't accepted then it might have been a different response but I really CBA to trawl through courses offered by the University of Nowhere Interesting to demonstrate the point you didn't make.

what a ridiculous op. talk about narrow minded. perhaps some people consider being happy and following their heart rather than their wallet/money. i know of many people who have a career connected to classical music and are very happy and comfortably off moneywise, at least not struggling. i know because of my family, how much it means to them to be actively involved in the classical world. i bet you push your children to be a lawyer or dr, pleased you are not my mother

It's quite a middle class position to say that musicians make very little money. Plenty of people would be making the same or much less doing something that they don't even enjoy.

Sport isn't directly useful in the workplace either, but it's good for you. So is music.