To not understand why parents encourage music

[angryeumigrant]

when classical musicians earn so little.

The real money in music is in music production, composing, DJing, club nights, breakthrough bands, etc. Even that is not what it was in say the 1980s. There is next to no money in classical music performance.

I'll all for children learning to play an instrument for pleasure, read music, music theory, etc. However, I do wonder why parents would not actively discourage their children from spending too much time playing an instrument during GCSE / A-Levels. I think it's one of those things that is considered a "good thing" without it ever getting looked at objectively.

I would much rather my child was composing electronic music or sounding a computer game than reaching a top level playing the violin, because frankly the former is not only more creative but also more career-enhancing.

It used to be seen as more important here than it is now. There have been a lot of cuts.

It may be more important in Germany, other other places, I cannot speak for other countries, hence I only mentioned the UK. I know Koreans in the UK here take music and art (how to draw) very seriously even for young children and buy extra outside school tution.

It was once an essential part of 'good' education.

Anyway, Gwen, if I had my way music and art and would be more at the core
of all education for all classes.

I think in terms of other curricula subjects music isn't taken seriously.
In fact I think that's pretty true of anything that isn't academic.
They are the first subjects to be cut when something is happening in school, like an unusual or different event.

The standard of teaching isn't consistent across schools as many teachers don't know anything about the subject. Not their fault, I don't blame them at all.
Provision also isn't consistent across schools, making it more beneficial to some rather than all.
I couldn't stand the woman myself but the gov funded scheme for talented musicians was the result of Thatcher, probably the only good thing she did.
Since then thousands of musically gifted children irrespective of their parents income have received a specialist music education at music schools throughout the UK. It's where you have to go if you have a gifted musician for a child.

The real money in music is in music production, composing, DJing, club nights, breakthrough bands, etc
You are right but for ever superstar DJ out there I would estimate that there are around 1,000 wannabes spending every minute of their lives recording mixes and trying to breakthrough into in the big time.

"if I had my way music and art and would be more at the core
of all education for all classes."

What a nightmare! Is it not enough that they're both compulsory up to 14 (or were when I was young) and music is also offered during break times and as after-school activities?
They do both suffer whenever there are cuts e.g. in times of recession.

So do German and Korean schools teach more music than UK schools?

Gillybeanz most of DD1's national ensemble friends don't/didn't go to a specialist music school. Many kids/parents don't want to board. Dd1 is still going to the RCM in September so I think you are wrong when you say you have to go to a specialist music school if you are musically gifted. You may want to believe it because it's the route you have chosen. But that doesn't make it a fact.

Gwen - you don't like music. I think we all get that. Don't begrudge it for others though. That's just petty and narrow minded.

Uhred

I'd say the RCM is a pretty specialist music school. You don't have to board or even attend a music school to receive funding for a specialist music education.
It's just that some do attend these schools.
My apologies, I should have been clear that I included these too.
The same scheme includes dance too, but obviously this thread is about music.

Gilly it's not a school it's a conservatoire. For undergraduates and post graduates. you were talking about schools like the Purcell or the school your DD goes to. Which are not, whatever you may say on MN, available to all. Because if you live nowhere near those schools then boarding is the only option and it's an unacceptable option to many (most?) people. But the fact is a young person does not have to go to one of those schools to have a chance of going to a conservatoire for their higher Ed. And as I said, plenty of kids in national ensembles don't go to those schools either. So your statement that you have to go to one of those schools if you are musically gifted is clearly inaccurate. And if my DD was younger and I was reading this thread it might really worry me, reading your comments - you relentlessly promote the route that you have chosen for your DD as the only possible way for a kid who is serious about music to proceed but it really isn't the only way.

Uhtred

First of all the school my dd attends is open to all who pass the audition.
However, this isn't what I was referring to at all.
I was talking about the many schools, colleges, JD's etc who benefit from the Mds there are lots of them and you don't have to live near them or board.
Some are those that operate just on a Saturday and people travel long distances to be able to attend.
No, I don't regularly promote any school or type of school as the only way, that's ridiculous. I have repeatedly said on many a thread that many musicians I know never set foot in a music school or college.
I even talk about those who took the one exam required to apply for college too, and my dh past pupils some of which came to him a year before audition, took grade 8 and had offers from every conservatoire having their pick.
I wouldn't have minded my dd reading a post like that as I'm sure she's have alerted us to the information and asked if she could join one of the schools, colleges, or other organisations who offer the Mds.
So please don't worry, I think I know the many ways and directions people choose to become musicians.

"Gwen - you don't like music. I think we all get that. Don't begrudge it for others though. That's just petty and narrow minded."

Not true Uhtred. Don't dismiss my arguments by claiming that I don't like music. I never said that. I like listening to music and I even got some pleasure from piano playing and being in the choir. My issue is that I resent the time spent on music during my childhood and adolescence because it took time away from other things. I don't disagree with music lessons at school or with private lessons to learn an instrument, but I disagree with the emphasis put on it for the average pupil and the degree to which it's pushed. In my childhood it was a big part of primary school then compulsory at school until 14 then an option for GCSE and choir, musicals etc. happened all the times, whereas plays didn't. My youth league was also heavily focused on music. I'm hardly the only person for whom this was inappropriate, it would be the case for anyone without a particular talent or passion for music.

gilly of course you have to live near a JD if you want to go there every saturday. How else do you propose the kids get there? And most people? Don't live near them. The people that travel long distances can afford to do that - but not everyone can.

My DD also had her pick of all the conservatoires for which she auditioned.

Having read your posts under your various names for years I'm fairly sure you really don't know all of the manyways and routes people who become musicians can follow. You just think you do.

Gwen - there is NO emphasis put on music in state school. It's laughable to suggest there is. Even paid for music lessons are expected to bedumped to facilitate eg sports day, for example (with no refund to the parents either). Music really isn't pushed at all. You must be confusing it with sport or science (which is the thing that is really pushed to the exclusion of practically everything else)

Uhtred

I personally know several families who travel long distances to the RNCM JD, they can't afford it are low income and they have travel and the t shirt/ sweatshirt paid for.
The same at dd and other schools if they attract the Mds depending on income, you may not have to pay anything.
Please stop trying to talk about things you clearly have no idea about.
The help is there for families on low income, it's even there for middle income in some cases.
Some schools earnings of up to £190k before full fees are payable.
Maybe it wasn't the route you chose for your dd and that is great, she has certainly done fantastically without it, but don't pretend that for the majority who don't earn enough for private lessons that a specialist music education isn't their only option, because it is.

Uhtred

My dh is a musician, we live a musicians life style, we have been together for about 28 years, and believe me I know hundreds of musicians.
but maybe you could educate me then and tell me the many routes and variables you understand a person might have in becoming a musician, I'm all ears.

"there is NO emphasis put on music in state school. I"

Uhtred, there was when I was at school and I know that my situation was common. Singing was done a lot at primary school, then at secondary school music was compulsory between 11 and 14 and then an optional subject at GCSE. Are you saying this is not the case?
I think the issue is that we disagree about 'pushed'. You would presumably like to see even more music lessons, but I think what we had was already much more than most countries in the world, in many of which music is not a school subject at all. Remember that ever time a child is in a music lesson, they are not in another lesson and I don't think it's acceptable that in England and Wales a child could drop a subject as important as history or geography at 14 in favour of music. I'm not sure what the situation is now.

There's also private music lessons arranged by parents and extra-curricular activities. If I add up all the time spent on music when I was between 4 and 18, it's a hell of a lot. It definitely was pushed in my time.

I think it is very naive to assume that the situation which prevailed when the Mumsnetter herself was at school is still the case.

Reading any newspaper or listening to any TV news programme should be enough to tell people that there have been absolutely huge changes in the way both primary and secondary education has been delivered - with many creative activities sidelined in favour of an ever-narrowing curriculum focused around what can be tested.

It's depressing to have to make the case for music-making. But it involves all sorts of good things - listening, the use of fine motor skills, collaboration etc. It's not a subject that exists in isolation. What you learn with and through music bears fruit in the way you approach all sorts of other activities.

Exactly, Kinloss. All those other things become so much easier too as a result.

kinloos - people were complaining about not enough attention given to music when I was young as well.

Music is still a compulsory school subject at certain ages is it not and parents still send their children to piano lessons etc. even if they have no particular talent or passion for the subject.

"it involves all sorts of good things - listening, the use of fine motor skills, collaboration etc."

That's true of many other activities as well though isn't it?

Anyway, to prove that I'm not a complete philistine, I will be off to the Eisteddfod tomorrow, a festival of MUSIC and poetry among other things.

I suspect that like so many Mumsnet discussions that it is completely pointless when a person doesn't really 'get' what is being argued about.

Funding for the provision of music in schools has been changed and cut in recent years..
www.theguardian.com/education/2012/apr/16/school-music-services-hubs-privatisation

While I'd say all the arts have an ability to engage and stimulate young people, I think music has a very broad range of benefits that, say, geography does not.

www.theguardian.com/education/2012/apr/16/school-music-services-hubs-privatisation

At a time of growinginequality, I don't think the argument that (some) people can always pay for private provision really holds water. If music is a good thing, it should be made widely available.

Kinloss

I can't argue with that at all. except to say it isn't always black and white as you can probably gather from the exchanges with me and Uhtred.

It is sad that provision isn't equal for all, especially in the state sector.
The rich can access it through paying for private lessons, schools and attract scholarships. Not to be confused with specialist music schools which are funded differently and contrary to belief, a pretty fair system for many others.
Then of course are those who can afford an hour a week which is about £30ph round here, some have more than one lesson.
Then there are the LA's who have brought in private contractors who charge far more than the LA who operate on a shoestring.
There are LA's like ours who subsidise lessons, instrument hire and

I can't get my head round the differences and I'm sure the range of quality of provision is unique to Music, or maybe The Arts.

I fly the flag for the specialist schools and JD's because they aren't the Elite and if people like me don't then who else is going to tell the hundreds of kids who would love to attend but parents aren't wise to their existence, or think they can't afford it. Not because I think they are some Utopia, the only way, or the best. They suit some people, especially those who would miss out otherwise.
It isn't fair for all, but there is help out there, we just need to publicise the fact.

The music at my kids' primary school is dire. Really dire. There is a choir - one for KS1 and one for KS2, in fact, but they sing only accompanied by a CD. And the teachers running it are commendably enthusiastic, but the KS1 ones in particular have no musical background at all, as is very clear when you watch their attempts to 'conduct'. I'm told there is a piano in the school somewhere, but I have never heard it played - the school have never taken up offers from parents to accompany assembly. My kids will be fine - they go to Saturday music school and we pay for private lessons. But other kids whose parents are unable to afford that may well go through their entire primary school life without once singing accompanied by a piano. That's atrocious imo. This is an ofsted outstanding school, incidentally. They just have no institutional interest in promoting music, and the system doesn't penalise them for that in the slightest.