"I could never send my dcs to grammar school....

[winkywinkola]

...because I think it's unfair on all those children who can't get in because they couldn't afford tutoring for 11+. But I will send them to prep and boarding school."

I was a bit perplexed to hear this from a mum at the school gate. Aibu?

No system is perfect or 100% fair...at least around here you can't buy your way into a leafy comp just because you can afford the inflated house prices within its catchment...how fair is that?

Around here the grammars have virtually no catchment, some pupils travel in from 20 miles away. Absolutely all manner of housing stock is included from a sink council estate to rural, period mansions and everything in between.

Some parents pay for tutoring, but not most, probably because there just aren't the numbers of tutors available. And yes, we paid, so you could argue that we had an unfair financial advantage.

But even if we hadn't paid for tutoring, our DDs would still have had an 'unfair' advantage being born to graduate parents. Being exposed to more sophisticated vocabulary. Growing up in a house full of books etc.

If there actually is the occasional very intelligent child, whose parents are somehow totally illiterate, who don't even have a roof over their heads where their child can sit in a chair and look through past papers (so they're living on the streets?)...if their parents are so disengaged that they don't even know of the 11+...then really whether this, supposed, child can/can't pass the 11+ is a bit of a moot point, really.

Because even if they passed, their parents sound like they'd be totally unable to provide them with uniform, stationery, sports kit, bus fares...

So angst-ing over the 'unfairness' of them not sitting the test seems a bit pointless?

No system is perfect...and for every unfortunate child who did have the high IQ to pass the 11+, but wasn't supported properly by their parents...there is a similar, unfortunate child, with the same high IQ getting bullied at their comprehensive for being a swot...

"there is a similar, unfortunate child, with the same high IQ getting bullied at their comprehensive for being a swot..."

Yeah- because that happens all the time. No bright children in comprehensives at all. Positive dens of iniquity, comprehensive schools.

Downstairs, are you in Ireland?

So if you are poor and come from a family which isn't in a position to help you, you are not grammar school material unless you were incredibly self motivated at the age of 10, but if you come from a well off supportive family it doesn't matter how motivated you are, you will be given the coaching you need?

Well this is where the school should be stepping in. Surely its their job to prepare the child for every opportunity they can?

It seems to me its the attitude of many state primaries that is failing dc with potential more than anything else. State primaries that are drowning in ideologies left leaning rather than full or purpose to do the actual job.

there is a similar, unfortunate child, with the same high IQ getting bullied at their comprehensive for being a swot...

That is absolute bollocks. Utter, utter bollocks.

State primary schools are not allowed to do more than offer a couple of practice papers. If they offer more and it can be proved they have, technically their results could be declared void.

Offer more papers or more support in general?

Talk to the parents the DC that they have the potential, discuss what it means? Tell them what they can do at home to help?

Our state primary school refuses to get involved in 11+ in anyway. Which is fine, but does rather leave parents muddling through it all on their own. It probably explains why only a handful of children sit the exam each year (and an even tinier number actually go to grammar school). I'm not sure if this is actually means that an unknown number of able children miss out on the opportunity to go to grammar school because the parents are either unaware or too daunted to help them prepare for the 11+.

I repeat. State primary schools are not allowed to offer more than 2 practice papers.

Many do more than this, but they are technically running the risk of their 11+ exam being declared void.f

That is the entire problem, if you are in a GS area schools should offer something to even out the playing field a bit. It wouldn't wipe out the years of prep some do but at least it is something.

Our school does nothing, nothing at all.

Absolutely. But if LEAs allowed that, they would be admitting that th 11+ is coachable. Which we all know it is. But it isn't up posed to be.

I know Bertrand. Unfortunately it just tips the balance even further in favour of children from well-educated, affluent, motivated, aspirational families.

I repeat. State primary schools are not allowed to offer more than 2 practice papers

Helping primary state dc to pass an 11+ isn't all about practice papers though is it?

They could see a dc potential earlier on, meet the parents discuss options ask if they would like their DC to try the test, TELL THEM what they need to do, ASK THEM if they have any resources POINT THEM in the direction of websites etc to help.

Which would take all of two minuets at a parents evening?

Your narrowing what I am saying down to coaching the DC and giving them more than two practice papers.

I am talking about either holistic support, or a few pointers for the parents.

But we were prepared for it back in the day, not intensive coaching at all compared to today but we all did a bit of reasoning and past papers, two terms worth in year 5.

The system is broken, pupils are coached for SATS which is the modern measure whether you agree with SATS or not.

Yet in a state grammar area there is no 11+ test prep provision by schools.

Our school does nothing, nothing at all

yes schools have lost their way some what some of them.

I shall be broaching this subject soon, and instead of feeling its something I can talk openly about I will be feeling uncomfortable about it, as though asking if the school gives out any infor about the 11+ is a dirty subject.

Rights or wrongs of grammar schools aside, the cost of uniforms for grammars is no more expensive than for other local secondaries. And as for school funds, you don't have to pay anything.

catherine its a disgrace in my view. An utter disgrace.

What? No child has ever been bullied at a comprehensive for being a swot? Really?

When I was working as a TA and a Cover Supervisor in several secondary schools I witnessed pupils being quietly barracked by their less academic peers for being a swot...but that was over 5 years ago.

Perhaps it's all magically stopped since then?

Which is nice.

twowrongs well that's complete bollocks. For full uniform and PE kit and science and art and computing supplies and locker and journal we are easily heading towards £600 per child to kit them out.

And this is only purchasing the compulsory elements of kit.

Two you do have to pay unfortunately. My dd's school has a compulsory element (£150) and a voluntary contribution (£450). Ds' school has a fee of £1500; no voluntary element there. Two missed payments and you are out (as per the contract) There is an option to have a reduced rate for low income but this is discretionary and requires a meeting with a bursar.

Ours only test VR and NVR as it is seen as 'a measure of academic potential'. Our primary doesn't do VR/NVR familiarisation at all.

You can be as clever as you like but if you have never seen a paper before you will be at a massive disadvantage.

I can't think of anything else I have done in my life that I haven't prepared for.