"I could never send my dcs to grammar school....

[winkywinkola]

...because I think it's unfair on all those children who can't get in because they couldn't afford tutoring for 11+. But I will send them to prep and boarding school."

I was a bit perplexed to hear this from a mum at the school gate. Aibu?

Mini, agree. Again, as I have said about the link between Ofsted grade and perceived quality of schools being very tightly linked to their intake (of which % PPP / FSM is a crude measure but adequate to reveal the linkage), anything that skews that further by creating a 'lower PP than the general population' option (private schools have a very tiny percentage of pupil premium children) will exacerbate the problem.

Tbf, comprehensives in London specifically do better than their intake predicts that they should. This is partly a feature of far more generous per-child funding (a child in a state school ion London attracts double the funding of one where I live) but also some very effective London-wide initiatives.

" If these children and their families were invested in local state schools "

yes but that is not going to happen is it? It seems a waste of time even thinking about it. The likes of the parents whose children attend the same school as my niece and nephew do would burn in hell before sending their little darlings to the local state school.

Also, London has a high immigrant population. Perhaps some of these children come from cultures with a different attitude to learning?

"Bert I ask because if it's very unusual indeed to get A*/A and a couple of Bs then that suggests either that the 11+ in your town is a pretty accurate indicator of potential or that the teaching at the secondary modern is shit. It doesn't suggest much late flowering in any event, or late flowering which has the appropriate teaching to flourish."

I thought you were asking me how common it was for anyone at our school to get all A*As- of course that would be incredibly unusual in a secondary modern. We do get plenty of As and B.
I'm not a great advocate of the late blooming thing, actually- but It is a factor. And telling people "this is your level- nobody expects you to do any better because this test you took at 10 is an accurate indicator of your ability" is a bit of a self fulfilling prophesy"

"Also, London has a high immigrant population. Perhaps some of these children come from cultures with a different attitude to learning?"

This x 1000

The schools with the worst results in the UK are almost all those with the largest numbers of white working class children.

Mini has just proved the point (though she will deny it)that comprehensive schools do not work for white working class children!

So what sort of schools do you think would work for white working class children?

I think it would fundamentally change the character of education in the capital, and challenge expectations of state education for everyone

The two failing comps in my town are in classic leafy areas with a mix of housing, some houses as much as 3 million. Now I am sure not every child is at the comp, but some will be. Its been crap for a long time. Just what are parents supposed to do?

The schools with the worst results in the UK are almost all those with the largest numbers of white working class children

Ah yes the bottom of the whole heap. The ones we - as a society fail to educate then classify as Lazy

A mix of schools Bertrand Inld good access to grammars. Break up the cycle, break up the block.

Mild tangent alert -

This 'pretty accurate indicator' thing reminds me of my Grandad, who always tells us how amazing his form master at junior school was - at the beginning of the last year, he'd say 'you, you, and you - you're the grammar group and I'll be teaching you ready for the 11+ = you, you and you, you're not.' And do you know, every year, every child in Group A got in, and no children in Group B did???

Which, to my grandad (bless him) merely goes to show the fellow's perspicacity and knowledge of his pupils' abilities....

Why would a secondary modern be better for white working class children than a comprehensive?

How do you combat the self fulfilling prophesy of testing at 10?

Schools that select on ability whether that be on sporting music or academic terms. Every child has got some kind ability of ability in something. Children should be in specialist schools that allow their abilities show (particularly important that working class children can be seen to be good at something)

However, you can't save every child there will always a significant number of white working class children that are either unwilling to be educated .

The fact is despite the good intended ' 1969 woodstock' type ideas of the liberal's everybody being educated together in perfect harmony does not work.

Either cant or unwilling to be educated.

Sorry about the mistakes...

Our local high school in a pretty challenging area,white working class,had better GCSE results than the very good independent school, fabulous facilities, down the road.

My kids attended the high school and dds now just done GCSEs and A levels with great results.

The difference I think is a very very dynamic head and leadership team and a truly inspiring and no nonsense attitude to getting the kids on.

It's brutal in the sense that the kids who don't care, or whose parents don't care, disappear by year 10.

This school got my older kids to uni and degrees and will do my younger ones too. We could no sooner afford private ed than fly so not complaining.

The parents paying huge fees at the private school must be pissed off.

*Children should be in specialist schools that allow their abilities show (particularly important that working class children can be seen to be good at something)

However, you can't save every child there will always a significant number of white working class children that are either unwilling to be educated .*

^Particularly important that working class children can be seen to be good at something.
^
How terribly middle class!!
It has nothing at all to do with 'letting them see that they can be good at something'

You do realise, I presume, that the vast majority of 'working class children' are just as able as middle class & rich kids don't you?!
A pat on the head a well meaning 'see Johnny, I knew you'd be good at rounders' is worth the square root of fuck all.

If you are in fact actually bothered about giving all children the best possible education, then as Hastheworldgonemad just posted:

The difference I think is a very very dynamic head and leadership team and a truly inspiring and no nonsense attitude to getting the kids on.

The sooner we stop pissing about with 'choice' to appease a small percentage of parents, and start properly resourcing & funding comps, whilst making sure the leadership & teaching teams are excellent, the sooner we'll see an improvement across the board in education - including proper facilities & classes for the very gifted.

I think it is too late for "white working class kids" by high school. They have been falling behind all along. Half their school is already behind them.

At our local primary, great emphasis is put on whole class learning and mixed ability tables. This really hurts particularly able dc whose parents aren't going to supplement at home. While switched on parents might supplement at home or hire a tutor when they think things are moving at the right pace or plumbing the appropriate depths, these kids get no more than the school has to offer.

So when things move at a stately pace, it puts a real ceiling on their achievements. The levels they achieve at the end of year 6 have been suppressed. Unfortunately, these go on to be the foundation upon which their secondary school career will be built.

For me, saying that parents should not enrich children's education at home is unworkable and rather chilling. The answer has to be for the schools to change their ideology and to start setting earlier.

" The ones we - as a society fail to educate then classify as Lazy"

With respect, if immigrant children at the same schools are achieving much more highly it suggests the problem isn't with the school, it's at home.

If a parent doesn't value education then there isn't much hope for the child. Schools can only do so much

Margrethe, if there was solid evidence that setting was effective at raising educational attainment I suspect schools would be doing it. As it is there is precious little, except in relation to numeracy.

Well said mango. Although I disagree on it being a middle class thing to say. Bourgeois Hyacinth Bucket is more applicable. Having any form of class is the last thing I would accuse the author of such ignorant shite of possessing.

"The fact is despite the good intended ' 1969 woodstock' type ideas of the liberal's everybody being educated together in perfect harmony does not work."

Actually it does work - my children's school and many other comprehensives are testament to that.

"Mini has just proved the point (though she will deny it)that comprehensive schools do not work for white working class children"

Maybe this is the one group who would be better off in a different environment.

I suggest that private schools should lose their charitable status until they start using bursary funding to pay the fees of children who actually benefit most from individualised attention, wrap around schooling, a full extra curricula provision, mentoring, and exposure to a wider cultural context than is possible through their home background - namely under achieving white working class children.

I disagree with you here mini.

My DC attended a really lovely CE primary. It's been great for them socially and emotionally. Academically, it fell far short. However, if you look at its stats, it compares very well to the national average.

It's not fair that DC are limited by their parents' ability and desire to push them forward. The answer isn't asking ambitious parents, like the immigrant families that you admire, to "sit on their hands."

Rather, better use should be made of the six hours that the state legally has them in school. This is the time we are all paying for in our taxes. This is the time legally set aside for these children to have a chance.

After over 10 years of being a state primary parent, I am all too aware of the time that is wasted on endless assemblies (everyday! often pointless adults enjoying the sound of their own voices and the logistics of herding 400 DC in and out of the hall), waiting for other students to settle down and get themselves together, patiently waiting through dull classes where the same stuff is covered again, and again, and again. Grouping DC with like needs and abilities together at key times in the day would be a massive boost to efficiency. And it would help children whose parents just don't care or aren't capable of supporting learning most of all. This wasted time is particularly precious for these children. And we seem more than happy to fritter it away.

and why would a secondary modern or a comp be better than a grammar?

my children's school and many other comprehensives are testament to that

But so many are not, ie the two in my town that have been failing dc for decades . We are not deprived here, good mix of housing not soley one or the other?

If a parent doesn't value education then there isn't much hope for the child. Schools can only do so much and where was that parent educated? and their parents and theirs and so on? The two failing schools near me will be on their second and third generations to fail now.