"I could never send my dcs to grammar school....

[winkywinkola]

...because I think it's unfair on all those children who can't get in because they couldn't afford tutoring for 11+. But I will send them to prep and boarding school."

I was a bit perplexed to hear this from a mum at the school gate. Aibu?

[BertrandRussell]

A few facts about grammar school as they are now, not how they were.
1)Very few children would pass the test without at least some tutoring
2)They do not have children from "all walks of life"- many have very few if any children on FSM or with SEN for example.
3)There are a lot of private primary schools which focus on passing the 11+ - and make no secret of the fact.
4)Your friend is quite admirable in not taking up a grammar school place if she would otherwise use private education. The

[NoFuchsGiven]

I am really sorry to hijack your thread op but can you/anyone recommend which books is best to tutor my ds for his 11+. Also is there like mock test papers I can buy or download to have a look at? Thanks.

[BertrandRussell]

The tests are specific to areas- and in some cases to schools. You need to find out what ones he will be doing before you buy any books. There's a scary website with lots of information but very intense people- hang on- I'll find a link.....

[ColdAsIceCubes]

NoFuchs, you need to find out what exam your area sets, and the one website that I found that answered most of my questions was eleven plus exams. It has a sub section for each area and gives information for which exam is used, which makes it easier to source the correct materials.

[BertrandRussell]

here you go Don't forget a bucket of salt and a bag of grips when you venture in, though!

[ThumbWitchesAbroad]

I don't know about all private schools, but the ones I do know about all had entrance exams that needed to be passed as well, so if the lady the OP is talking about was worried about her DC passing the 11+, then she would probably also be concerned about him passing the entrance exams for private school as well.

There probably are some private schools out there that don't have entrance exams though, I don't know.

[Blue4ever]

I don't know about the specific school you are talking about, but in my area, the grammar school is beyond uber competitive, at entry point and thereafter. It is absolutely beyond belief what children have to go through to pass the exam (except a few naturally gifted children) and during their studied there. A friend of mine goes there and she said that she was normal before going to that school, came out with severe anxiety and depression, which followed her right through her adult life. She now feels she is never good enough at whatever she does.

Some private schools are very academic of course, but have a more rounded approach I think.

[winkywinkola]

Really interesting and eye opening.

Why is it admirable not to use the state education system because you can afford private?

If you can afford private, should you then feel you are morally obliged to pay for private?

Would that apply to the NHS too then?

I use Bond books to practise the kinds of tests thought to be in the 11+.

[BertrandRussell]

Because technically the idea of grammar schools is to provide an academic education to kids who wouldn't get it otherwise. Obviously that does not apply now - if it ever did- but it is even less likely to apply if places are taken up by kids who were privately educated specifically to get into grammar schools and whose parents would pay fees if they failed.

[littlemissneela]

We didn't pay for tutors and two of my three got into Grammar schools. I wanted to them to only go there if a) they wanted to and b)they were able to do the work.
The only 'expensive' thing about grammar, in my experience, is the cost of the uniform. But then again, when my dd went to comprehensive school her uniform was just as much as theirs!

[TheFairyCaravan]

Going back to what Ginny said about the CEA paid by the MOD, I have a friend who had 2 children at boarding school. Her husband got posted to a non mobile post and the CEA was withdrawn. The children had to come home and go to the local comp.

It's not paid just so you can send your children to a private school. It's paid so military children can have a continuing education. We were lucky our children managed to stay at the same school for the whole of secondary, but DS1 went to 3 primary schools and DS2 went to 4.

[winkywinkola]

So if someone has the money to afford private education, they must never feel able to use state? It's morally wrong?

There is no prep school set up specifically to pass the 11+. They just offer education. They might offer some 11+ classes but that's not really a focus as there will be many children in the school not taking the 11+.

[Topseyt]

You ask do people not help their kids revise for GCSEs?

I certainly didn't. Mine got some help with primary school homework if needed but beyond that I left it up to them and they have done fine without any interference from me.

DD1 went to grammar school. DD2 would have been unsuited to it so went to the local comprehensive. DD3 probably could have gone to grammar but due to a few problems which I won't go into here it was probably just as well she didn't do the 11+. She is in year 9 now at the local comprehensive, top set and doing great. She will be fit to apply to the grammar school for 6th form, along with other schools too, and wants to do that.

DD1 had minimal private tutoring for maths as the standard taught in the local primaries here isn't enough. That is all we did.

[BertrandRussell]

"So if someone has the money to afford private education, they must never feel able to use state? It's morally wrong?" No. That's not what I said. I was talking using private education to practically ensure your child passes the 11+. And no, prep schools generally don't focus on the 11+ - they have their eyes on CE and 13+. But there are definitely private primaries that have 11+ preparation as a selling point.

[CatherineDeB]

We are in a grammar school area. There are many more private primaries than there are secondaries because obviously people would prefer to send their DC to grammar at nil cost than continue paying for a private education.

These schools have verbal/non verbal reasoning extra curricula classes from year 3, go figure.

Our fairly bright but doesn't do pressure very well 10 year old is doing a bit of VR/NVR at home, familiarisation. They don't do this sort of things in school any more. When I went to grammar we did prep for 11+ at school.

My take on it is that if you can't get in with a small amount of prep (vs intense tutoring) then it probably isn't the right school for you.

Imagine being miserable for however many years secondary is in an environment where you struggle vs thriving in a less academic place.

[winkywinkola]

But Bertrand, you said it's "admirable" to pay for a private school place rather than take up a grammar school place.

[grannytomine]

When we found out my DC1 was going to grammar school I did have mixed feelings but felt it was best for him but wished the local school was good enough. Mum down the road shouted at me about how disgusting it was, she was very left wing. One year on I asked her where her son was going, she got very embarrassed and finally said the grammar school and started justifying it to me. I just laughed.

[JaWellNoFine]

Of course some preps focus specifically on 11+....


Elmhurst School for Boys is located in South Croydon and caters for boys aged three to eleven.

The combination of our broad and balanced curriculum, along with our preparation for 11+ entrance exams, ensures each boy achieves their full potential..

[BertrandRussell]

Yes, I did, winky. If you believe that grammar schools and private schools offer a better education, then surely it is admirable not to take up a place that would be better given to a child who's parents couldn't afford that education?

[winkywinkola]

So it is a morally superior choice then?

[Amaia10]

In my experience, some people will say all sorts of bizarre things to justify their reasons for going on the prep into boarding school route, rather than the grammar school or independent day school route. A friend of mine, whose DS would no doubt get into any of the top London day schools (Westminster, St Pauls, etc) is sending him to a boarding prep outside London because she doesn't want him "hanging round outside Topshop with girls on the weekend" Basically, they want him to go to Eton at 13 because that's where the DH went and that's all there is to it. Some people feel that certain schools offer certain advantages which are equally / more important than academics and will go on this route regardless. It's got little to do with freeing up grammar places for those who need it!

Also, grammar schools vary enormously in terms of admissions. In some London boroughs, the odds of a place may be 1 in 12! A friend's DC go to a Grammar in the North- West where the odds were 50/50 of a place.

[bibbitybobbityyhat]

The grammar system annoys me even more than the private schools (and I am not a fan of either) so I understand where that mum is coming from.

[GETTINGLIKEMYMOTHER]

We have two very good grammars here - always near or at the top of the league tables - and competition for places is savage. There is a lot of tutoring, but not necessarily paid for. From experience it can just be a case of plenty of practice in the type of test.

When we came back from living in the Middle East our daughter had just one term to prepare for the 11 plus. She had never seen or done the type of test before (largely verbal reasoning then) and her scores at the beginning of term were about 45%. However the school gave them practice every day and by the end of term she was scoring 90%+, and passed the 11+.
But I had been told by someone who was supposed to know that it was impossible to prepare for these tests, which was clearly rubbish. Dd had no trouble at all keeping up later and went to a Russell Group university.

However I heard some time ago that at least one of the local grammars has introduced traditional style English papers in addition, since they had found that new entrants who had scored very highly in VR papers, were unable to write a sentence with reasonable spelling and grammar, so that they were having to do remedial work with them.

If I were preparing a child now, I would be very hot on SPAG as well as anything else. Especially since I have known teachers who apparently don't know the difference between its and it's (among other things), and who apparently like to think that such things don't matter any more.

[BertrandRussell]

Well, sending your child to a primary school that focusses on passing the 11+ when if you didn't live in a grammar school area you would automatically pay all the way through is certainly a morally dubious choice. iMO, of course.

[peachpudding]

Well if she is getting 90% of it all paid for and made that comment then she is probably being a snob.

Look at me, my DC goes private, we dont have to scrabble around trying to pass a test just to get into a Grammar, where they would still have to mix with the unwashed poor.