AIBU to be worried - Reintroducing the Truck System for the unemployed in the UK

[nickymanchester]

It has been reported that the UK government is starting a small trial in Manchester to pay (what I presume is) Job Seekers Allowance to people in a brand new blockchain currency called "GovCoin" - similar to BitCoin.

And that what this "money" is spent on will be tracked by the government - initially, the tracking will be on a "voluntary" basis.

So instead of actually paying real money in to a person's bank account they will now provide them with a crypto-currency on their mobile phone which can only be used in certain retailers and where the government will be tracking what the money is spent on. I can well imagine where this will lead.

One of the main backers of this is Lord Hunt, who is the Minister for "Welfare Reform" - boy does that phrase ever put the fear of god into me. As an aside, Lord Hunt was the government minister who, in 2014, said that disabled people were "not worth" the minimum wage. He is also the person behind the move to Universal Credit that, while it may have very laudable aims in theory, in practice it has been a nightmare for many of the people on the receiving end of it.

This is a quote from one of the sources:-

GovCoin Systems tests blockchain-based platform for social welfare payments in UK

Speaking at the Payments Innovation Conference 2016 on 4 July, Minister for Welfare Reform at the Department for Work and Pensions Lord Freud highlighted the ongoing trial saying:

We have been working with GovCoin Systems (and their partners, Barclays, RWE npower and University College London) for this trial. Claimants are using an app on their phones through which they are receiving and spending their benefit payments. With their consent, their transactions are being recorded on a distributed ledger to support their financial management.

Jeremy Wilson, Vice Chairman, Corporate Banking at Barclays, explained that the initiative focuses on adding an additional layer of richer data and identity onto payments, so that a deeper and more effective relationship can be established between the government and claimants.

www.econotimes.com/GovCoin-Sy...s-in-UK-233316

There are many other sites reporting this as well which you can find through googling them, for example:-

www.cityam.com/245128/governm...ain-technology

www.fstech.co.uk/fst/GovCoin_...ents_Trial.php

So why the title of this post and why my concern? Well, at school, one of the A levels I studied was history and a major part of that was the Economic & Social History of Britain in the 18th and 19th Centuries (the other part was Britain and Her Relations with the World 1914-1945, not that anyone's interested). Anyway, the Truck System was an infamous form of payments that became widespread in the UK and led to a great deal of abuse.

While, currently, these are just trials that are happening at the moment, I really do see the awful potential to become a fully fledged Truck System where the state monitors exactly what unemployed people are spending their money on, where they spend it and eventually will be able to control these things. This bit is really scary:-

so that a deeper and more effective relationship can be established between the government and claimants.

AIBU to worry about where this might lead or is it just an example of how new technologies can help young unemployed people so that they don't have to worry about pesky little things like actual having some cash in their hand but have to have pay for a mobile phone in order to access their benefits?

Interesting that this is slated to trial in the Manchester area. Am i right in thinking that Universal Credit was also piloted in some metropolitan boroughs of Greater Manchester (and Warrington) ?

If it deters people from buying drugs alcohol and junk food and shit they don't need then im all for it. And people on benefits don't generally put down payments on cars or buy petrol as far as i know £57 a week isn't enough for either of those thing's so YABU and tbh the amount of people ive seen spending a weeks JSA or housing benefit on plastic tat in poundland and then buying a bag of chips for the kids dinners for the week is unreal everyone I've seen on benefit seems to do drugs in some form including cigarettes or have an alcohol problem so this kind of behaviour needs to be reeled in and stopped. And its not your money anyway it's the governments and the tax payers so they have every right to see how people are spending it and make adjustments as necessary.

Wow Snape thats some stereotyping there. Im not on JSA but i do live in social housing.

Im teetotal and ive NEVER been drunk not once. Ive never touched drugs.

Im also childfree by choice so no DC let alone several. I had to claim JSA in the distant past

Anyone can fall on hard times To quote Adam Hills dont be a dick

If you can't afford petrol than hoe can you afford cigarettes alcohol or drugs. The issue is more about basics suc h as clothing which cannot be purchased using this system unless buying new which on 71 quid a week is not affordable.

Lily you clearly mix in some strange circles.

HIGHLANDFLING80 applying for jobs, and attending days at the job centre are not the same as doing a 12 hour night shift in a hospital...and if you dont want to be forced to volunteer for your money then find a job....people who have been unemployed for years have no excuse....i dont agree with this scheme ....i was pointing out that nurses and doctors dont do training and work for free, they work bloody hard for their pay and pay tax !

This is never going to fly its simply the Govt looking to circumvent whats all ready going with BTC as a payment system.

Like,how do they value this payment system do you get .0000100 Gov Coin for your 70 quid per week?

Anyways, its a bad idea to be tracking how money is spent, we're all ready a near cashless society this would be a step to far for all kinds of reasons.

The only person I know on jsa is trying desperately to find a job. But at 62 with no qualifications and possibly mild sen these jobs are not easy to find. She already does about 24 hours per week voluntary work and attends courses as necessary and walk 3 miles per day to library so she can job search. This is why I take exception to money for nothing. The doctor or nurse doing their 12 hours shifts are paid considerable more per hour then a workfare person doing 35 hours per week for 71 quid.

The voluntary work is her choice btw. Bit different to her friend who was. Volunteering with her but was doing an NVQ and working the till and getting real job experience. He was forced to give this up and do 35 hours per week doing menial tasks with no chance of a job afterwards for his 71 quid as the place where they volunteer would not accept workfare as they could see how immoral it is .

Incidentally I never said that a public sector employee and someone on benefits was the same.

Once again the UK are importing half an idea from the US. When I was laid off the third time I was given a prepaid debit card which the state filled up each week I claimed. I could go to an ATM and take out cash or buy things with the card.

This system they are looking to implement in the UK is awful. Just give people a prepaid debit card and let then buy what they need. Food stamps (snap) and WIC are the food programs here in the US. I would love to see WIC in the UK. Basically you can walk into almost any supermarket and buy formula, diapers, fresh fruit and veg, whole grain bread, pasta, rice, beans, peanut butter, milk etc for your children under 5. It actually starts from when the mother is pregnant. I think it is a great idea and I don't see or hear of it being abused. Snap is abused but not for drugs. Parents sell the expensive foods they purchase and use the money to buy cheaper food and other necessities for the family. I don't have a problem with this. What I have a problem with are the vast number of nannies in my town (as well as other towns)who work for cash only so they can qualify for these benefits plus others such as housing, free school meals and free wrap care.

everyone I've seen on benefit seems to do drugs in some form including cigarettes or have an alcohol problem so this kind of behaviour needs to be reeled in and stopped. And its not your money anyway it's the governments and the tax payers so they have every right to see how people are spending it and make adjustments as necessary.

So just because you surround yourself with people on drugs, smokers, and alcoholics, you think it's okay to assume that everyone else on benefits has this same problem??

I'm on benefits, and I don't smoke. I had some wine at Christmas, but the bottle of wine was a gift from a friend. I can't remember the last time I actually bought alcohol as I rarely drink it.

Up until the time I had to stop working to be a carer for my children, I always worked full time in a well paying job. I will point out, however, that carer's allowance IS considered a wage - meagre though it is - as you have to declare it as income, and put it on self assessment tax every year under "income." So no, actually, it's NOT your money. It's mine. And you've got no right to know how I spend it.

Oh, and just to be clear, I'll mention I don't take drugs either, since I neglected to mention that in my last post.

OP YANBU to think this is terrifying. It is

How the Tories can have the check to say Labour believe in the nanny state I don't know. This is micro-managing in the extreme.

As ever with the Tories, to make sense if why they are doing this, stop asking how it will help people / society because

a. It won't
b. That's not their aim.

Instead, ask yourself does this create an opportunity for profit for big business? This is the Tories' main focus - not helping people - and once you understand that their policies make more sense.

Here the profit opportunity is clear - being one of the approved providers of goods and services for the unemployed will be of enormous financial benefit to those companies. They will likely set up a system where companies can bid for access to this.

It's not about people spending money recklessly. If the government cared or understood it wouldn't make life yet more expensive for people on the poverty line, which us what this will do. Instead this is all about the lost opportunity to big business when people are using cash and spending it in small businesses or on second hand goods.

By introuducing this, they are removing the ability to spend money on non-approved providers in one fell swoop.

This policy represents - yet again - power and profit being handed to corporations.

The neoconservative people currently in power do not give a shiny shit about the plight of the poor. They do however see us all as cattle people to be exploited for profit for big business, this is yet another way to do that.

Blink Absolutely. The ones to benefit from this will be big businesses that in turn support the Tories. It's certainly not the first time this has popped up.

Whilst I share a bit of unease about this idea, I also recognise there is a lot wrong with the welfare system at present. To witt, the local car wash is staffed entirely by Poles. They do a fantastic job. A team of ten falls on your car like a swarm of ..... workers. It is all done in about 10 minutes. Similarly the local asparagus farm staffed by Latvanians. There is a local chain of Chinese buffet restaurants staffed entirely by Estonians.

At the same time my local council is worried about NEETS, (school leavers not in education employment training).

Clearly the carrot of earning a wage is not enough to persuade people to tqke up those jobs instead of living on benefits. Some form of stick begins to make sense. Is this a good stick?

Those of you who are saying it's fine for this to be done to the unemployed - are any of you on tax credits?.If so would you be happy for your money to be controlled lime this?.Because it'll be you next.

The whole point of universal credit was to make everything one universal benefit.

No JSA, no tax credits etc, just universal credit.

So if they are testing this on people on JSA in the short term you can be pretty sure they intend to role this out to all people receiving any kind if state help eventually, and that's a huge number of us.

You happy with that? I'm certainly not.

The level of control they are after is terrifying.

Do you know for a fact that those places pay full NMW Prof? Car washes are notorious for not doing so.

I always wonder when I see a single-nationality foreign workforce in any British enterprise, what hiring policy has led to such uniformity, whether the working conditions are fully legally compliant and so on.

"Is this a good stick?"

No this is not a good stick. It won't make NEETs suddenly feel motivated.

Nor is it meant to. They just want to use rhetoric exactly like you are using to make this palatable for Tory voters and Daily Mail readers, where in fact it is a terrifying step towards social control.

The ability to control individuals afforded to people in positions of power by modern technology is like nothing we have ever seen. If we are to avoid sleep walking into a modern totalitarian nightmare then we must resist moves like this.

Are you happy for this kind of stick to be used on you? Because if you claim tax credits then when Universal Credit (or whatever comes after it if it really is too much of a mess now).is thrilled out to everyone there will be no distinction between JSA and tax credits, have you thought if that?

rolled out not thrilled out!!

ProfessorPreciseaBug

couldn't agree more and I have another example:
I worked with big insurance companies, needing staff to answer the phone 24/7, and trying to recruit native English speakers No discrimination here, for obvious reasons they try to have people speaking as many languages as possible, and English is a useful one
It's impossible. No-one is interested in working a 37 hours week, above market rate with benefits but at night and/or weekends. If it is not Monday to Friday daytime, you only attract foreigners.

How can that be right?

Blink,

I asked the question because I am not convinced this is a good aporoach. Whilst we can agree it may not be all to bright, I have to now ask what alternatives are possible?

It is necessary to observe that whilst there are jobs available in the UK which are being taken up by immigrqnts, there is no reason to be accepting benefits and all the associated "control" imposed.

I have read through this thread getting more and more incensed at the sheer lack of basic common humanity, compassion and empathy in some people. You might have enough money not to need benefits but my God, you're immeasurably poor in the ways that actually matter.

These are real people you're dehumanising. People who weren't lucky enough to have the advantages you clearly take for granted, whether that be a loving supportive family, a meaningful education, good role models, a key person at the right time to put you on the right path or more material factors. You're unbelievably privileged in so many ways you don't even recognise and you think that gives you the right to sit in judgement over the undeserving - in your eyes - poor who don't spend their money in the "correct" way.

Here's a brief lesson for you in how part of the benefit system works (as much as any unholy shambles of a government system works). If you're long-term sick - including with a disability - you could claim Incapacity Support, replaced by ESA, gradually being replaced by PIP. If you're on ESA, you're assessed as to whether you're in the Support group or the Work Related Activity Group. You can only stay on WRAG ESA for 12 months and if, at the end of that time, you haven't found a job, you're taken off ESA and put on JSA. As an example, my DH who has three medical conditions, any one of which would be classed as a disability in their own right, one of which was severe enough to get him medically retired from work in his early 50s and another of which will eventually kill him, was originally placed on WRAG ESA. That is not unusual. That is the default. Only after an appeal, with me acting as his advocate, was he moved to the Support group.

How many people in that position don't have an advocate? How many don't understand how the system works? How many are now on JSA - and therefore apparently worthy of your scorn - because of attempts-at-cost-cutting decisions made by civil servants with no medical training, when they should still be receiving the help their condition deserves?

This entire benefits system is broken, not because of over-claiming (more goes unclaimed every year than is lost to fraud, by the DWP's own admission) but because the government wants it to break and are doing their best to break it with their own incompetence and inefficiency, coupled with a nice line in media propaganda that too many are willing to fall for.

That woman buying fags and scratch cards? Deserves understanding and support, not scorn and demonising. And you know what? If there are a small minority pissing their benefits away on drink and Sky? So fucking what! It's a small price to pay to be able to call ourselves a civilised, compassionate society. So fuck right off, judgey fuckers.

PageStillNotFound404

good for you if you are happy to pay for that woman, and the others. I am not.

The system needs a complete reform, and on that I agree, a minority actually needs MORE help.