AIBU to be worried - Reintroducing the Truck System for the unemployed in the UK

[nickymanchester]

It has been reported that the UK government is starting a small trial in Manchester to pay (what I presume is) Job Seekers Allowance to people in a brand new blockchain currency called "GovCoin" - similar to BitCoin.

And that what this "money" is spent on will be tracked by the government - initially, the tracking will be on a "voluntary" basis.

So instead of actually paying real money in to a person's bank account they will now provide them with a crypto-currency on their mobile phone which can only be used in certain retailers and where the government will be tracking what the money is spent on. I can well imagine where this will lead.

One of the main backers of this is Lord Hunt, who is the Minister for "Welfare Reform" - boy does that phrase ever put the fear of god into me. As an aside, Lord Hunt was the government minister who, in 2014, said that disabled people were "not worth" the minimum wage. He is also the person behind the move to Universal Credit that, while it may have very laudable aims in theory, in practice it has been a nightmare for many of the people on the receiving end of it.

This is a quote from one of the sources:-

GovCoin Systems tests blockchain-based platform for social welfare payments in UK

Speaking at the Payments Innovation Conference 2016 on 4 July, Minister for Welfare Reform at the Department for Work and Pensions Lord Freud highlighted the ongoing trial saying:

We have been working with GovCoin Systems (and their partners, Barclays, RWE npower and University College London) for this trial. Claimants are using an app on their phones through which they are receiving and spending their benefit payments. With their consent, their transactions are being recorded on a distributed ledger to support their financial management.

Jeremy Wilson, Vice Chairman, Corporate Banking at Barclays, explained that the initiative focuses on adding an additional layer of richer data and identity onto payments, so that a deeper and more effective relationship can be established between the government and claimants.

www.econotimes.com/GovCoin-Sy...s-in-UK-233316

There are many other sites reporting this as well which you can find through googling them, for example:-

www.cityam.com/245128/governm...ain-technology

www.fstech.co.uk/fst/GovCoin_...ents_Trial.php

So why the title of this post and why my concern? Well, at school, one of the A levels I studied was history and a major part of that was the Economic & Social History of Britain in the 18th and 19th Centuries (the other part was Britain and Her Relations with the World 1914-1945, not that anyone's interested). Anyway, the Truck System was an infamous form of payments that became widespread in the UK and led to a great deal of abuse.

While, currently, these are just trials that are happening at the moment, I really do see the awful potential to become a fully fledged Truck System where the state monitors exactly what unemployed people are spending their money on, where they spend it and eventually will be able to control these things. This bit is really scary:-

so that a deeper and more effective relationship can be established between the government and claimants.

AIBU to worry about where this might lead or is it just an example of how new technologies can help young unemployed people so that they don't have to worry about pesky little things like actual having some cash in their hand but have to have pay for a mobile phone in order to access their benefits?

PIP is not replacing ESA - entirely different benefits
PIP is replacing DLA and is non-means tested.

my comment was to page and her long post.

Thank you mollie123 you are entirely correct. That should have said UC.

I'm uncomfortable about this scheme for a number of reasons. I'm a tax payer who only claimed JSA for a month when I was young. It was so depressing I promised myself I'd never do it again and literally scrubbed toilets to avoid ever having to go to the job centre again.

Genuine question not trying to be goady. How many of you who find this unfair voted to leave? If so is this what you envisioned when they said to take back control?

This is why I genuinely feel Brexit was such a bad idea. There will be no checks and balances on schemes like this and it cannot be blamed on migrants.

Just to following up on a point made earlier, the £650 million pounds a week on uncollected taxes will be needed to support the NHS, education and gaps in EU subsidies. So it won't be as simple as handing over the money to benefits. Plus if we decrease the tax paying migrant population we will need to bolster the state pension system to make up for the decrease in people paying in and the increase in recipients. And that's if we manage to actually collect a full £650 million which is unlikely!

For what it's worth, smoking is a major financial drain on the NHS as is obesity and alcoholism. The government can't really put in funding and schemes to address these issues without looking at where they can control root contributing factors.

It's all about the bottom line with a tory government not compassion.

i hate it when people say doctors, nurses etc are paid by the tax payer....of course they are but they WORK for it not get GIVEN it for doing nothing AND they also pay tax on that earning....dont even go there with the same argument as getting tax payers money from benefits!!!
I was a lecturer, then my 38 year old husband became ill. Insurance didn't pay out despite the fact that one of the drugs used to treat him, banned in the USA, made him significantly worse. He too was a lecturer. He can barely walk. Each day I wash him and dress him, move him about, help him to eat, help him to move etc. Night times too. I do the same with my daughters, both of whom are currently at home and both of whom have disabilities. Don't talk to me about doing nothing for my benefits, I do a site more than a 12 hour shift and I don't get leave of any description or holiday pay, or any so called benefits associated with being properly waged. You haven't a clue what happened to people to get them to the point whereby they are reliant on the state. Perhaps it would be kinder to think about that, flip the empathy switch on instead of moaning about those lucky enough to be in a position to be able to work and to earn a bit more than a basic hand to mouth existence whilst some ivory towered, opinionated, thick idiot decides where I can shop and what I can choose when I do so.
Oh, and don't start with it's different for carers. The only way it's different is we get less than those on jsa. Yes, you read that properly.

I voted Remain, Bam, because the thought of being stuck with the Tories scrambling to reverse the rights we've gained through membership of the EU over the next four years (and beyond?) was too depressing for words.

(I should add that wasn't the only reason for my vote, but it's the one that's germane to this discussion.)

Oh, and those of you that think it'll stop people from purchasing drugs and booze. Grow up! Of course it won't, it just means they'll find a different way round the system. What those people need is help, real on the ground support. They rarely take drugs or drink for fun. There are in almost all cases reasons for the behaviours, hence help being required.

Right. It's not going to happen. Let me tell you why. PIP was announced over 6 years ago; there are still hundreds of thousands of people on DLA which is, of course, a benefit broadly similar in scope and payment method. UC was announced at about the same time and is still so far from roll out it's laughable-there are still people on IB and IS for sickness so still on benefits abolished in the previous set of reforms (from the mid 2000s) and not yet on ESA, let alone on UC, they have been waiting for over a decade to be moved to a system which is already out of date. This new benefit system would require a totally different payment system. It requires monitoring of a totally different level than that of which the DWP is currently capable. If they were silly enough to try and introduce it it would probably take decades-this gov is sinister but far far too stupid to make their sinister plans a reality and THANK GOD FOR THAT!

There are a lot of challenges with blockchain technology which have yet to be addressed. However, the snake-oil salesmen have already picked up the scent, and are peddling it as "the future".

I notice it's a trial ...

Yep if people want to buy drugs and booze they will do. By hook or by crook. They'll get it someway and it's very bubble like and nieve to think otherwise.
Has anyone thought, that. The reason why so many people have problems with alcohol and drug addiction could be because of the cunting , never have and never will live in the real world government, and the ridiculous amount of stress they put claimants under. I think if I had to jump through hoops and doff my cap to wankers looking down their beak at me for what a sweaty slimy stinking £70 PW. Away and fuck. I think id just suck cock for a living

This scheme ultimately demonstrates the view of politicians that people on benefits cannot be trusted with proper money

And let's not even get started on the administrative overheads.

Treat adults like adults, give them responsibilities and act like they're humans like everyone else and the politicians might be pleasantly surprised.

The tories don't like the nanny state applied to them so why apply it to others.

This is appalling.

Fk me the opinions of some people on this thread demonstrate a shocking lack of education and enormous ignorance!

This concept dehumanises people, it increases the already existant 'them vs us' divide, it stigmatises people.

How do I know this - because we already have similar schemes around the country - you get a council property and if you are on benefits, you got a voucher to help you get the place decorated. Necessary, because the property would be in dire need of redecoration.

Those vouchers could only be spent in certain shops, in my town that was one market stall and B&Q. THats it, no other choice.

Go there with your voucher and every item is examined, held up, shouted across the store to other employees to determine if it is a permitted item.

Smirked at and ridiculed when the item you need is not permitted, treated like dirt because handing over those vouchers immediately marked you out as scum..

YOu can't buy what you need with them, so to do that, you trade them with people - you buy them some paint and brushes and in return you get some cash, a lot less than the value of the items but you have no choice, you are stuffed so you take that offer from a neighbour or friend of a friend.

This is what will happen if this scheme is put in place - it will NOT stop people addicted to booze or fags or drugs from getting those things - they will sell on the legitimately purchased items for less than the face value, and then use that cash to buy what they need, putting them further into poverty and debt, demoralising them further, increaseing the divide between 'them and us' yet further.

The govt' will have no clearer idea on what is being purchased by claimants than they do now and that information is not of use to anyone but businesses... the big supermarkets and energy providers and service providers like that information... but why would the government require it hmm?

If this happens it will end up that ALL benefits are paid this way, you know what the biggest welfare cost the country has.. pensions - are you happy to recieve your pension this way, are you happy for your parents or grandparents to recieve their pensions this way?

I doubt it.

What about child allowance, what about tax credits - you'll be happy to be told where you can and cannot spend those I guess?

ilive I know a few people who don't claim JSA but rely on just tax credits, child benefit and housing benefit to survive. They are worse off financially but have much less stress because of the DWP hoop jumping.

A very close friend was out of work for 6mths and refused to sign on. Instead applying just for housing and council tax - a nightmare in itself to prove you have no income not even JSA. He was fortunate to not need JSA - he swopped simple jobs for meals with his FB fiends whilst looking for work and that was just to avoid the Stress from the DWP. Used food banks occasionally. Not everyone can do that though and he is a very rare case.

People Arrington everything they can to avoid having to sign on.

I remember when I was signing on (3years ago) I had to find 6jobs a week as a single parent. Try finding 6jobs that fit around school hours every week that don't require weekends? It's impossible. I was on JSA for 3mths but this 3mths were enough to cause me to have a depressive relapse and need meds again. I had been fine for the previous 6yrs :/

My DH was made redundant a little while ago. He had been working for years so was entitled to contributions based JSA, regardless of my income.

He gave up on the whole process before his first payment came through because the entire experience was so insanely unpleasant – advisors ignoring him when he gave them accounts of his actual job search because the only job hunt that counted was via their website, where absolutely no appropriate jobs were being posted, advisors ignoring him when he explained that he couldn’t apply for a job that would expose him to a bunch of chemicals for health reasons, and threatening him with sanctions when he got a job interview that clashed with his signing on session.

He decided to drop his claim, which they then, bizarrely, refused to accept and instead sent him a nasty letter saying he was being sanctioned for non-attendance and while they couldn’t actually do anything this would affect him if he tried to claim benefits again.

I absolutely see this as a continuation of those attitudes. This is basically being set up to make it nastier and nastier to claim benefits, and it makes me furious.

YADNBU.

If this inhumane system is brought in then I agree with the poster who said it should also be brought in for all Parliamentary member's expenses as they are also being fully funded by the taxpayers. Please do not forget that IDS, the disgusting excuse for a human being, that has wasted so many millions of taxpayers money on UC, claims £37 for breakfasts, £45 for silk boxer shorts etc.....

A lot of people on JSA are actually "working" for their money through Workfare as well as job hunting because it is an extremely rare occurrence that they secure permanent form their placement. The only people that benefit from Workfare are the companies that get the free labour and funding from you the taxpayer for allowing JSA claimants to raise their profits that they certainly do not pass on to the public by lowering their prices.

There are so many people on JSA who should be on ESA but because the assessments they have to endure are not fit for purpose and carried out by companies who are being paid hundreds of millions a year to cut the welfare bill and are willing to lie on their reports and disregard any medical evidence provided.

Dawn I fully agree with all your posts and think you deserve a you are by far underpaid for the care you provide as are all of those in the same position.

So for all the posters out there who think this is a good idea please stop watching Channel 5 and reading the Daily Fail and go and see your GP as you seem to have a swinging brick instead of a heart.

I don't have a heart of stone but what I do have is first hand experience of growing up living in a house where the benefits system was abused

*" No-one is interested in working a 37 hours week, above market rate with benefits but at night and/or weekends. If it is not Monday to Friday daytime, you only attract foreigners.

How can that be right?"*

The vast majority of paid-for childcare in this country is only available during the daytime from Monday to Friday. So unless one of the benefits of the job is a free nanny, it's not going to be much use to many single parents.

Not everyone has a partner at home during those times or family members who are able to provide childcare.

My issue with this is how long will it be before the government decides that check all benefits so even if Your working they can decide if you can buy things? what about pip? Will they monitor that too? Mine used to pay for counselling sessions which have enabled me to work.

Also how long before it becomes everyone on any benefit gets monitored?

I pay my rent out of my wages and use my working Tax credits (11.35 a week) to pay my phone bill, how long before I can't do that?

This new benefit system would require a totally different payment system. It requires monitoring of a totally different level than that of which the DWP is currently capable. If they were silly enough to try and introduce it it would probably take decades-this gov is sinister but far far too stupid to make their sinister plans a reality and THANK GOD FOR THAT!

Unfortunately I have to disagree with you on this point. The technological infrastructure required to bring this in wouldn't necessarily be as complex as putting in place the previous schemes you mentioned. Because the system would be automated it would be easier to run administratively with the current technology available. This means they can cut costs on manpower because monitoring would be so much easier. Also it can easily be outsourced to a tech company to run, which is what the government is moving towards (I work in the industry). The savings that could potentially made on this system as opposed to the previous one could be huge.

Sadly I think that will be the argument that wins in the end

I don't have a heart of stone but what I do have is first hand experience of growing up living in a house where the benefits system was abused
I am sorry this happened to you, abusive parenting is hell.
However, we really aren't all like that, and a few irresponsible folk should not have the power to make it hell for all of us.

BertPuttocks

for a start, foreigners manage, because someone is doing the job.
What about couples, both unemployed?
What about people without children?
What about single people?

Yes, a night shift might not be easy for a single parent (ignoring the fact that the salary would cover the costs of an aupair, but fair enough), but what about everybody else? I have seen so many people coming at interviews, but saying that "na, they don't like to miss out on the weekend". We should all be grateful that nurses, doctors, firemen, policemen etc find a way to work nights and weekends.

The problem in this country is that the system allows people to refuse to work because it is easier. Benefits should be a safety net, not a chosen way of life. When people are moaning because they can't have luxury free paint, or are proudly going on holiday, because it's their money they spend it as they wish, then there is something bloody wrong. Any scheme trying to make the system fairer gets my vote.

I'd also have to disagree about the never-never aspect of the timescales involved in changing systems over. There may well be people who have yet to be migrated from Incapacity Benefit to ESA, for example, but there are many who have been, and lost benefits as a result in spite of being officially not capable of working. Government incompetence rarely takes the most comforting form, unfortunately.

I find it difficult to comprehend the mindset of anyone who thinks this kind of control is a good idea. I do meet people who think this way and would get on board with it in a shot, but if I'm honest they don't tend to be the types to to a lot of independent thinking. Mostly you hear a repetitive parroting of Mail-esque drivel about lowlifes drinking away their benefits over the weekend then gaily making their weekly trip to the foodbank for free goodies. Absolute fucking mince.

What to they think will happen if these dreadful people, scourge on society, yadda yadda, are suddenly condemned to the barest dreariest existence where even the purchase of a pack of cheap biscuits might be scrutinised and curtailed? I'll tell you what I'd be doing in that position. I'd be thinking I might as well be in fucking jail, so in the meantime I'll help myself to something to cheer me up.

shark
Try reading stuff without dark glasses. The PP was not moaning about being unable to buy luxury paint, she was distressed due to the humiliation it caused. FFS.

Oh, and if you think it's that easy getting benefits and staying on them, that it's a lifestyle choice, try it. It isn't. Apart from which, as the JRF has pointed out, many, many times: there are very few people on long term benefits as a lifestyle choice.

The system in this country absolutely does not allow people to refuse work because it's easier- don't know where on earth you get that from. The benefit system in this country is punitive and thoroughly unpleasant.