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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To covertly record mental health professionals?

88 replies

OnceThereWasThisGirlWho · 09/07/2016 05:11

More an AIB legal... I know it sounds awful but after last nights incidents I need to somehow be able to show someone what they're like. I swear the crisis team woman was actually being goady. She seemed like she was purposely being difficult, obtrusive, and interacting with me in an inappropriate manner. I was trying my best to be calm and assertive - was quite good at "calm" as feeling so overwhlmed, hopeless and barely able to force the words out. But I swear this was actually pissing her off more, she actully said "If you're going to shout and scream at me..." which was just bonkers, I was just calmly and firmly repeating myself for the millionth time as she kept asking the same question. I wonder if she was doing it for the benefit of others in the room with her? to cover her back somehow cos she didnt want to speak to me? I dont know, it all seems crazy but I feel like i'm in an abusive relationship with them. No offence to decent MH professionals, but the coercion and obfuscation, and frankly, downright lies they have put in my notes ("Once said she sometimes likes to manipulate people to get what she wants" Hmm) are freaking me out and part of what makes it all seem so hopeless.

Can I/is it legal to record them as evidence?

OP posts:
Assamteaformeplease · 09/07/2016 23:19

I am a HCP, and where I work we are advised to treat all consultations as if they are being recorded. I haven't knowingly been recorded but wouldn't have an issue if someone asked. I can understand why patients may choose to do this as appointments can be stressful and it's hard to take in everything and recall advice that's been given. I think the way it's approached with the professional is the key to how the consultation goes as trust and respect from both parties are so important

Atenco · 10/07/2016 05:54

Surely OP, you could say that you would like to record just because they tell you that you are shouting and screaming while you are sure that you are not, so you want to be able to check this.

nolegion · 16/07/2016 02:44

That search engine beginning with ‘G’ spotted this discussion, and I have joined this forum specifically to add some comments on the topic. I have been studying the law and practice relating to this patient initiative for several years now.

First, as many contributors here have worked out, it is NOT illegal in England for a patient to take an audio recording of a medical consultation (provided that no other patient’s confidential information is somehow captured in the process). Any lawyer or medical practitioner who tries to claim it is illegal is simply, point blank, wrong.

Furthermore, such recordings, whether taken overtly or covertly, CAN be admitted to evidence in court or, for instance, in the furtherance of disciplinary proceeds brought by the GMC in front of a Medical Practitioners Tribunal. Most courts and tribunals retain a degree of discretion about what evidence they will consider, but where a recording is genuinely relevant to the matter in hand the weight of authority is soundly in favour of admissibility.

For those who like a bit of ‘chapter and verse’ re legal detail, here is what the MDU had to say about the subject over 2 years ago:-

"Patients do not need their doctors' permission to tape a consultation as the information they are recording is personal to them and therefore exempt from data protection principles. Section 36 of the Data Protection Act 1998 states: "Personal data processed by an individual only for the purposes of that individual’s personal, family or household affairs (including recreational purposes) are exempt from the data protection principles and the provisions of Parts II and III"

"If you suspect that a patient is covertly recording you, you may be upset by the intrusion but if you act in a professional manner at all times then it should not really pose a problem. Your duty of care also means you would not be justified in refusing to continue to treat the patient. If you did, it could easily rebound on you and further damage your relationship with the patient. And remember that your refusal to continue with the consultation could be recorded."

[Dr P. Zack, medico-legal advisor to the Medical Defence Union, the largest UK medical insurer; article at MDU website. Nov 2013]

The summary of the relevant section of the DPA is not quite100% accurate, however. It is the combined facts of a patient 1) being a private ‘individual’ (so not, say, a business) and 2) the personal (so not, say, professional) purposes of the ‘processing’ of the data that keep a patient's activities in this regard more or less completely free from the restrictions of the DPA. It is not the fact that the concentration of the data is likely to represent personal information relating to the patient as suggested by the article. But this is a narrow distinction without much of a difference, and the overall outcome (i.e. legality) is what matters.

The above quotations and quite a bit more ‘chapter and verse’ can be found in a thread discussion started at the ‘Free for All’ section of the BMA’s website discussions, some while back.

See:-
www.bma.org.uk/connecting-doctors/bmaspace/f/21/t/314

The state of knowledge amongst medical practitioners about the law and practice relating to patients recording remains at best very patchy, and herein lies the real and continuing problem.

Even when patients themselves are ‘clued up’ and know they would be perfectly entitled to have a recording for their personal use (and they do NOT have to provide a copy of the recording to the practitioner concerned) I find that many patients are reluctant to inform their doctors of their recording habits(and I do mean ‘inform’ NOT ‘ask’) precisely because it’s "pot luck" as to whether any individual doctor has actually read any of the now really quite extensive professional coverage of the issue – and patients fear they might encounter a practitioner who would launch into some kind of sulk or hissy-fit jeopardising their healthcare.

Quite recently, a hospital-based doctor in Plymouth, entirely erroneously as it turned out, thought that a patient had recorded a consultation on his mobile phone and locked the patient in the consulting room with him– and called ‘security! That doctor was lucky the patient didn’t report the doctor to the police for false imprisonment – but with the persistence of such ignorance and arrogance amongst practitioners it is no wonder that many patients simply record ‘silently’ - as they are perfectly entitled to do.

I am far from alone in pointing out that the way to avoid getting recorded covertly is for people to put simple signs e.g. in waiting rooms, making it clear that patients are WELCOME to record OVERTLY. And, quite frankly, until practitioners get their heads round respecting their patients’ preferences and do something like this, they will have only themselves to blame if, as some doctors sometimes do, they behave poorly towards a patient behind closed doors, and in a fashion they would be unlikely to indulge in if they knew the patient was recording; and then find themselves on the wrong end of disciplinary proceedings with ample evidence of their lack of professionalism. Covert recordings have been ‘key’ in more than one set of such disciplinary hearings this millennium.

Finally, although, as a ‘newbie’ here, I haven’t worked out where all the various contributors are ‘coming from’, I have noted some of the references to social workers being recorded. On this score I would direct contributors to the fine analysis of the ‘Transparency Project’, here:-
www.transparencyproject.org.uk/?s=recording

Atenco · 17/07/2016 06:40

What a shame, nolegion that the OP seems to have disappeared and not read your very interesting and helpful post. Still, it is out there for the education of all of us. Thanks

OnceThereWasThisGirlWho · 19/07/2016 22:33

Atenco you could say that you would like to record just because they tell you that you are shouting and screaming while you are sure that you are not, so you want to be able to check this.

I could, but as others have pointed out that seems like I'm going into it distrustful and wouldn't want to get ther backs up. I suspect they would hang up on me. It's also really hard if not impossible to be assertive when you're vulnerable and approaching them for help - I'm obviously in crisis when I call the crisis team.

Your second post seems a bit snipey. No need for that. As it happens I've only just spotted the replies. nolegion posted almost a week after the last reply. Thanks for the detailed response nolegion, very helpful. Smile

OP posts:
starchildareyoulistening · 19/07/2016 23:03

I don't have any advice, just wanted to wish you well with your assessment and hope you get the right diagnosis and support for you Flowers I have been having problems with my consultant psychiatrist lately (several pretty major errors made including trying to prescribe meds that could have killed me because he had the wrong file in front of him, and dismissing me when I tried to question the sudden change!). I think having issues with the service provided by a MH professional is a uniquely difficult situation as the person writing your notes has so much power over how everyone else views you. It's scary when you don't feel able to trust the person who holds that kind of influence over your life. All the best!

Atenco · 20/07/2016 00:38

My intention was certainly not to be snipey, OP, and I am sincerely sorry if it read like that. I hope you find a solution to this situation

Icallbullshit3 · 20/07/2016 01:22

No advice as such but I work as a hcp and I would have no qualms about being recorded... I have in fact been recorded before. I have nothing to hide. Never thought that it could be tampered with... That's food for thought But I reckon I would still just say that it's ok.

My notes are literally just factual and briefly contain what I've done I.e applied bandage to foot.

I am sorry that you are going through this.

OnceThereWasThisGirlWho · 20/07/2016 05:41

Sorry, Atenco, must have read into it waaay too much. Thanks.

starchild I think having issues with the service provided by a MH professional is a uniquely difficult situation as the person writing your notes has so much power over how everyone else views you.

Yes... It's not even a case of your word against theirs, because theirs is held in much higher regard.

OP posts:
Atenco · 20/07/2016 13:34

No problem, OP, written words are quite easy to misconstrue.

SouthernMamma · 18/06/2021 17:54

I'm a mental health crisis nurse and would love to have a bodycam on me. Have been accused of "not listening" when I've spent up to 2 hours with a patient because they've not got the response they want (often admission to hospital for a personality disorder which is neither clinically recommended or desirable). We have now been told that patients have every right to record us and we cannot decline care because of this.
Unfortunately there is no right of reply for healthcare staff when they are accused of something. A patient with ill intent could publish video content on social media, edit it and cause a situation where a staff member could be trolled. When people contact crisis teams, sadly, they can have some very longstanding psychological difficulties that are impossible to resolve over a phone call and require a therapeutic relationship with a skilled counsellor to help mitigate. Patients are incredibly angry with us when we can't take away their intense sadness over the phone.
Crisis teams are not effective for people with longstanding psychological difficulties but are a vital part of the 24/7 provision/gateway to services for people with acute psychiatric illness such as psychosis, elevated mood or one off life crises that can befall anyone.

GlassOnTheLawn · 19/06/2021 12:10

I think it’s illegal unless you tell them you’re recording them first.

Also most Crisis Team calls are recorded by the trust so they may have it on record?

TakeYourFinalPosition · 19/06/2021 12:22

This thread is from 2016.

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