To covertly record mental health professionals?

[OnceThereWasThisGirlWho]

More an AIB legal... I know it sounds awful but after last nights incidents I need to somehow be able to show someone what they're like. I swear the crisis team woman was actually being goady. She seemed like she was purposely being difficult, obtrusive, and interacting with me in an inappropriate manner. I was trying my best to be calm and assertive - was quite good at "calm" as feeling so overwhlmed, hopeless and barely able to force the words out. But I swear this was actually pissing her off more, she actully said "If you're going to shout and scream at me..." which was just bonkers, I was just calmly and firmly repeating myself for the millionth time as she kept asking the same question. I wonder if she was doing it for the benefit of others in the room with her? to cover her back somehow cos she didnt want to speak to me? I dont know, it all seems crazy but I feel like i'm in an abusive relationship with them. No offence to decent MH professionals, but the coercion and obfuscation, and frankly, downright lies they have put in my notes ("Once said she sometimes likes to manipulate people to get what she wants" ) are freaking me out and part of what makes it all seem so hopeless.

Can I/is it legal to record them as evidence?

Interesting though I spoke to a couple of MH organisations yesterday and both announced conversations were recorded. My insurers do the same and many other commercial organisations with whom I now deal. Surely if a professional says nothing wrong there shouldn't be an issue. If the OP records, the practitioner would surely have the right to do the same though.

Another recommendation for seeking out an advocacy service. But I also vote covert recording. Then consult with advocate and get them to review the recording alongside you to get their sense of the situation. Hope you can find the right support you need.

OhtheRoses I think it's totally fine to record the conversation if the other party agrees. It's the deception that's the issue.

Pearlman I didn't say we are told to tell
people it's illegal. I said we are advised wrongly that it is, by many sources. The issue is that while it's not illegal it's not admissible in a court. The problem with clients using it for complaints against Social Workers is that because of digital
recording it can be edited, which has happened in our team before.

I also had a client take a photo of me and my car registration then put it in a 'hate social workers' website. My management (quite rightly) stopped me working on that case and re-allocated it.

OP have you thought about emailing your Primary Care Trust.

Just tell them you will be recording. It is perfectly legal to overtly or covertly record consultations with medical professionals. The CQC even have a leaflet advising on how to do this. Covert recordings may not be legally admissible however.

I think we need to move away from the idea that recording is a symptom of lack of trust and therefore undesirable , there are benefits to both patients and professionals. And where trust has previously broken down agreement to overt recording may build trust. My advice is just announce you will be recording (don't ask) if you need care advice from most professional bodies is they cannot refuse to see you because you're recording.

You may need to check if this is true but I've been told you can record and then provide a transcript of recording but not recording.

Sorry you are not getting support you need.

I find that hard to understand, Restless. Why would you do that? At the very least, being able to listen again to a conversation could help both parties understand where things may be going wrong. What have you got to hide?

Restless recordings are admissable in court. Most definitely.

Can you say 'hang on, I'm not shouting as everyone here can hear. I take that accusation seriously so I'm just going to make a note of what you've said because I will need to discuss it with someone impartial.'

As I have said we have had a case where a client digitally edited secret recordings, he took bits out of the conversation and switched the order in which things were said, and used it in an official complaint.

Also you just have to look at so-called 'shame your social worker' sites to look at the level of abuse directed at Social Workers. I have nothing to hide but why would I put myself or my family through that?

I feel that I have completely de-railed the thread! I'm so sorry.

OntheRoses really? I was having a conversation with a solicitor last week who said the issue was with consent of an individual when passing a recording to a third part. Is she wrong? Are we getting the wrong advice again?

If you're the poster I think you are OP (based on what you've written and your posting style) then I really don't think you will gain anything by covertly recording any appointments.

If you are the poster I think you are, you do seem determined to prove that they are all treating you appallingly all the time and that your own actions are faultless. I believe you had to stop seeing a therapist before because you were shouting at her and being abusive? You need to work out what you hope to achieve by recording them.

If you are not that poster then I apologise, but I still think you need to look at what you are hoping to achieve, whether it is legal to do so or not.

If you're a professional, they key is to always behave as if you're being recorded. I was once talking to a client on the phone and they said "could you speak up, I am recording you". I was new to the role at the time and I made a decision to check myself and remember I can be recorded covertly and it is their right. I also try to speak clearly, even though I do have a lisp.

Anyway, back to you OP. It is your right to record somebody. However, I do agree that you would benefit form having a mental health trained advocate to support you in all appointments. I would encourage you to make a complaint and perhaps, do that with your advocate. You deserve to receive good treatment and you deserve to be treated like a human being.

That's good advice Doggity, to behave as though you are being recorded.

I sometimes do that as a parent, too

Can you take someone with you to take detailed notes?

I am a Dr, though not a psychiatrist.

I'm sorry you feel that your treatment has been poor, but I would advise you to tell the HCP that you are recording if you feel you must do it. If there is a problem in the professional relationship, it would be better to broach this directly if you can. If you feel you can't do it alone, then I'd advise you to do so with the assistance of a patient advocate. Advocates are usually very helpful to patients in situations such as yours and I would certainly advise that you look into them as it sounds like you could benefit.

Alternatively you could ask to be treated by someone else, although I do recognise that if the issue is with a member of the crisis team this would be difficult to do as you would be limited to who is on duty. The only other way forward is to go down the formal complaint route.

I have to admit I would be unhappy about patients covertly recording our consultation- and not because of any concerns about my clinical practice. It suggests complete lack of trust in me and if a patient felt this way I'd be very concerned and would want to know so that I could attempt to rectify the situation- e.g. by explaining why I had done/said whatever had caused upset or offence, or if necessary apologising. I would also dislike the level of deceit on the patients part and I would think it would affect our relationship moving forward.

Current advice is that HCP's should not refuse immediate care to a patient due to covert recording. They should ask for a copy that can be kept with the patients medical records. Advice is also that there should be no blanket policy of subsequent transfer care to another HCP in cases of covert recording, however this can be used as the basis for doing so due to breakdown of professional relationship.

I would most likely to agree to recording if the patient asked but I have to admit being recorded would make me feel a bit odd, probably because it's not something that happens routinely and so I'm not used to it. I might worry about the recording being edited though, more with some patients than others.

My understanding is that whilst not illegal, covert recording will not be considered as part of a complaint by many trusts as evidence because there have been proven instances of the recording being edited so they are not deemed entirely reliable. As others said, I also don't think they are always admissible in court. The GMC have said they may accept them as evidence in fitness to practice hearings.

From your posts it seems lots of professionals think you're being verbally aggressive/shouting when you don't think you are and even friends have said that to you.

Is it possible there's an aspect of the way you communicate when you're distressed that you're not fully aware of?.

I also had a client take a photo of me and my car registration then put it in a 'hate social workers' website. My management (quite rightly) stopped me working on that case and re-allocated it

That is nothing really to do with someone recording a meeting amd following the law to do so.

It is fully legal as a individual to covertly record pretty much anything they do any conversation they take part in unless they are in a court.

It is NOT legal to distribute or play that recording

It is legal to transcribe the recording and use the transcript however you see fit and the transcript is admissible in court.

Judges are more and more allowing actual recordings to be played and a huge amount of the time they do it it has shown dishonest conduct.

There are quite a significant amount of the types of professionals who are likely to be subject to covert recording who would welcome it becoming the norm so it does not need to be covert nor a matter for issue.

As one of those professionals (and having been a SW for many many years) I wouldn't be happy to work with another SW/other profesional who was not happy to be recorded unless there were reasonable grounds to believe that the individual client was intending to break the law. It would suggest to me they were neither honest nor competant and had a wish to place a service user at a disadvantage.

But then I'm a qualified profesional who speaks nicely and is not already disadvantaged by the relationship and nobody has ever had an issue with me recording anything.

It protects both parties or should do if both parties are decent.

Hoping the OP is OK

Having read some of the other posts, it's possible that you may have this problem with a lot of HCP's OP, and friends have told you sometimes you don't realise the way you come across to others- is that the case do you think?

If so, I would second those saying that it might be helpful to consider whether you are being (unintentionally or otherwise) loud or aggressive.

Sometimes when patients are unwell (physically or mentally) they can behave in ways they normally wouldn't or aren't always aware of how they are behaving because their distress. I've known family members also behave unreasonably because they have been frightened or worried, when they are usually perfectly lovely people.

If you are having problems with lots of different HCP's it is possible this could be the case for you. Obviously it also possible that you've been unfortunate enough to come across a range of HCPs who are providing poor care and act unprofessionally.

Either way, I would still advise seeking help from an advocate. They can provide independent support for you.

Needs - I am a cp social worker. I actually wish every conversation could be recorded, it would make my life much easier! However if a client covertly recorded me I would not be happy. I have nothing to hide, it is the covert bit I would have an issue with.

I think that it will really backfire if you do this covertly. However, there shouldn't be a problem with you recording the conversation if you tell them that you are doing so. I think it could be a helpful for them and you as perhaps it will show where things go wrong in your interactions with others.

I'm ok with being recorded as long as the can also make my own recording so that the fear of someone manipulating their copy is somewhat guarded against. I've been told before to always assume I am being recorded which I think is good advice.