To covertly record mental health professionals?

[OnceThereWasThisGirlWho]

More an AIB legal... I know it sounds awful but after last nights incidents I need to somehow be able to show someone what they're like. I swear the crisis team woman was actually being goady. She seemed like she was purposely being difficult, obtrusive, and interacting with me in an inappropriate manner. I was trying my best to be calm and assertive - was quite good at "calm" as feeling so overwhlmed, hopeless and barely able to force the words out. But I swear this was actually pissing her off more, she actully said "If you're going to shout and scream at me..." which was just bonkers, I was just calmly and firmly repeating myself for the millionth time as she kept asking the same question. I wonder if she was doing it for the benefit of others in the room with her? to cover her back somehow cos she didnt want to speak to me? I dont know, it all seems crazy but I feel like i'm in an abusive relationship with them. No offence to decent MH professionals, but the coercion and obfuscation, and frankly, downright lies they have put in my notes ("Once said she sometimes likes to manipulate people to get what she wants" ) are freaking me out and part of what makes it all seem so hopeless.

Can I/is it legal to record them as evidence?

[TakeYourFinalPosition]

This thread is from 2016.

[GlassOnTheLawn]

I think it’s illegal unless you tell them you’re recording them first.

Also most Crisis Team calls are recorded by the trust so they may have it on record?

[SouthernMamma]

I'm a mental health crisis nurse and would love to have a bodycam on me. Have been accused of "not listening" when I've spent up to 2 hours with a patient because they've not got the response they want (often admission to hospital for a personality disorder which is neither clinically recommended or desirable). We have now been told that patients have every right to record us and we cannot decline care because of this.
Unfortunately there is no right of reply for healthcare staff when they are accused of something. A patient with ill intent could publish video content on social media, edit it and cause a situation where a staff member could be trolled. When people contact crisis teams, sadly, they can have some very longstanding psychological difficulties that are impossible to resolve over a phone call and require a therapeutic relationship with a skilled counsellor to help mitigate. Patients are incredibly angry with us when we can't take away their intense sadness over the phone.
Crisis teams are not effective for people with longstanding psychological difficulties but are a vital part of the 24/7 provision/gateway to services for people with acute psychiatric illness such as psychosis, elevated mood or one off life crises that can befall anyone.

[Atenco]

No problem, OP, written words are quite easy to misconstrue.

[OnceThereWasThisGirlWho]

Sorry, Atenco, must have read into it waaay too much. Thanks.

starchild I think having issues with the service provided by a MH professional is a uniquely difficult situation as the person writing your notes has so much power over how everyone else views you.

Yes... It's not even a case of your word against theirs, because theirs is held in much higher regard.

[Icallbullshit3]

No advice as such but I work as a hcp and I would have no qualms about being recorded... I have in fact been recorded before. I have nothing to hide. Never thought that it could be tampered with... That's food for thought But I reckon I would still just say that it's ok.

My notes are literally just factual and briefly contain what I've done I.e applied bandage to foot.

I am sorry that you are going through this.

[Atenco]

My intention was certainly not to be snipey, OP, and I am sincerely sorry if it read like that. I hope you find a solution to this situation

[starchildareyoulistening]

I don't have any advice, just wanted to wish you well with your assessment and hope you get the right diagnosis and support for you I have been having problems with my consultant psychiatrist lately (several pretty major errors made including trying to prescribe meds that could have killed me because he had the wrong file in front of him, and dismissing me when I tried to question the sudden change!). I think having issues with the service provided by a MH professional is a uniquely difficult situation as the person writing your notes has so much power over how everyone else views you. It's scary when you don't feel able to trust the person who holds that kind of influence over your life. All the best!

[OnceThereWasThisGirlWho]

Atenco you could say that you would like to record just because they tell you that you are shouting and screaming while you are sure that you are not, so you want to be able to check this.

I could, but as others have pointed out that seems like I'm going into it distrustful and wouldn't want to get ther backs up. I suspect they would hang up on me. It's also really hard if not impossible to be assertive when you're vulnerable and approaching them for help - I'm obviously in crisis when I call the crisis team.

Your second post seems a bit snipey. No need for that. As it happens I've only just spotted the replies. nolegion posted almost a week after the last reply. Thanks for the detailed response nolegion, very helpful.

[Atenco]

What a shame, nolegion that the OP seems to have disappeared and not read your very interesting and helpful post. Still, it is out there for the education of all of us. Thanks

[nolegion]

That search engine beginning with ‘G’ spotted this discussion, and I have joined this forum specifically to add some comments on the topic. I have been studying the law and practice relating to this patient initiative for several years now.

First, as many contributors here have worked out, it is NOT illegal in England for a patient to take an audio recording of a medical consultation (provided that no other patient’s confidential information is somehow captured in the process). Any lawyer or medical practitioner who tries to claim it is illegal is simply, point blank, wrong.

Furthermore, such recordings, whether taken overtly or covertly, CAN be admitted to evidence in court or, for instance, in the furtherance of disciplinary proceeds brought by the GMC in front of a Medical Practitioners Tribunal. Most courts and tribunals retain a degree of discretion about what evidence they will consider, but where a recording is genuinely relevant to the matter in hand the weight of authority is soundly in favour of admissibility.

For those who like a bit of ‘chapter and verse’ re legal detail, here is what the MDU had to say about the subject over 2 years ago:-

"Patients do not need their doctors' permission to tape a consultation as the information they are recording is personal to them and therefore exempt from data protection principles. Section 36 of the Data Protection Act 1998 states: "Personal data processed by an individual only for the purposes of that individual’s personal, family or household affairs (including recreational purposes) are exempt from the data protection principles and the provisions of Parts II and III"

"If you suspect that a patient is covertly recording you, you may be upset by the intrusion but if you act in a professional manner at all times then it should not really pose a problem. Your duty of care also means you would not be justified in refusing to continue to treat the patient. If you did, it could easily rebound on you and further damage your relationship with the patient. And remember that your refusal to continue with the consultation could be recorded."

[Dr P. Zack, medico-legal advisor to the Medical Defence Union, the largest UK medical insurer; article at MDU website. Nov 2013]

The summary of the relevant section of the DPA is not quite100% accurate, however. It is the combined facts of a patient 1) being a private ‘individual’ (so not, say, a business) and 2) the personal (so not, say, professional) purposes of the ‘processing’ of the data that keep a patient's activities in this regard more or less completely free from the restrictions of the DPA. It is not the fact that the concentration of the data is likely to represent personal information relating to the patient as suggested by the article. But this is a narrow distinction without much of a difference, and the overall outcome (i.e. legality) is what matters.

The above quotations and quite a bit more ‘chapter and verse’ can be found in a thread discussion started at the ‘Free for All’ section of the BMA’s website discussions, some while back.

See:-
www.bma.org.uk/connecting-doctors/bmaspace/f/21/t/314

The state of knowledge amongst medical practitioners about the law and practice relating to patients recording remains at best very patchy, and herein lies the real and continuing problem.

Even when patients themselves are ‘clued up’ and know they would be perfectly entitled to have a recording for their personal use (and they do NOT have to provide a copy of the recording to the practitioner concerned) I find that many patients are reluctant to inform their doctors of their recording habits(and I do mean ‘inform’ NOT ‘ask’) precisely because it’s "pot luck" as to whether any individual doctor has actually read any of the now really quite extensive professional coverage of the issue – and patients fear they might encounter a practitioner who would launch into some kind of sulk or hissy-fit jeopardising their healthcare.

Quite recently, a hospital-based doctor in Plymouth, entirely erroneously as it turned out, thought that a patient had recorded a consultation on his mobile phone and locked the patient in the consulting room with him– and called ‘security! That doctor was lucky the patient didn’t report the doctor to the police for false imprisonment – but with the persistence of such ignorance and arrogance amongst practitioners it is no wonder that many patients simply record ‘silently’ - as they are perfectly entitled to do.

I am far from alone in pointing out that the way to avoid getting recorded covertly is for people to put simple signs e.g. in waiting rooms, making it clear that patients are WELCOME to record OVERTLY. And, quite frankly, until practitioners get their heads round respecting their patients’ preferences and do something like this, they will have only themselves to blame if, as some doctors sometimes do, they behave poorly towards a patient behind closed doors, and in a fashion they would be unlikely to indulge in if they knew the patient was recording; and then find themselves on the wrong end of disciplinary proceedings with ample evidence of their lack of professionalism. Covert recordings have been ‘key’ in more than one set of such disciplinary hearings this millennium.

Finally, although, as a ‘newbie’ here, I haven’t worked out where all the various contributors are ‘coming from’, I have noted some of the references to social workers being recorded. On this score I would direct contributors to the fine analysis of the ‘Transparency Project’, here:-
www.transparencyproject.org.uk/?s=recording

[Atenco]

Surely OP, you could say that you would like to record just because they tell you that you are shouting and screaming while you are sure that you are not, so you want to be able to check this.

[Assamteaformeplease]

I am a HCP, and where I work we are advised to treat all consultations as if they are being recorded. I haven't knowingly been recorded but wouldn't have an issue if someone asked. I can understand why patients may choose to do this as appointments can be stressful and it's hard to take in everything and recall advice that's been given. I think the way it's approached with the professional is the key to how the consultation goes as trust and respect from both parties are so important

[grannytomine]

When the police record an interview they do it on a machine that makes two copies, one for the person being interviewed and one for the police. This seems reasonable as no one can tamper with the recording, I mean edit it.

[fusionconfusion]

"Often these notes to them have little to no connection with the meeting from their perspective."

And this. Unfortunately (and I say this as one, long pre-dating my mental health difficulties) HCPs are often very, very poor at correctly reporting their own biases and actions accurately and without prejudice and frequently massively overinterpret minor aspects of service user interactions.

[fusionconfusion]

You need an advocate.

I didn't record but I did have that same experience of being told I was "shouting and screaming" when I was speaking in an absolutely level tone of voice.

I took a complaint and it took nearly nine months but ultimately I got a 32 page letter of apology. Now, five years on, I feel it was a monumental waste of everyone's time to get involved with it. It was deeply painful to be treated so poorly but the best I can advise is to seek support elsewhere if AT ALL possible and just pick your battles. Some of them are definitely not good ones... but it probably isn't worth your time or energy to engage with it.

[NeedsAsockamnesty]

All of those who think it's decietful or shows such a dreadful lack of trust.

Do you think your clients who may not even know you actually trust you? Even half of them?

If you do you are kidding yourself.

If you have some form of power or control over them and they are at a disadvantage it is unlikely that they do not know they are at a disadvantage and that you have power.

Chances are that as soon as they know you are coming they are freaking out, they are on forums asking advice usually on if they can covertly record you or how to talk with you in a way that is clear and you can't twist to fit any agenda some of them are phoning legal advisors or charitable support services to find out what they can expect and what you can and can't do, they are asking other people if they know you and if you are ok. Trust is usually the last thing on their minds.

You have an expectation that is sanctioned by the virtue of your employment that they trust you they have little to no choice this is a clear expectation upon them. They have no equal expectation of trust placed on them from you. You do not have to trust them so they cannot breach your trust you can only breach theirs.

You may if you are very good at your job inspire trust from them after they have met you but at no time during your contact with them does the power imbalence change and at no time does the trust dynamic change.

What often tends to happen is the stress of the nature of the meeting combined with they way professionals tend to comunicate with service users result in you walking away to write your notes up and the family has no idea what you said really meant and they only find out months down the line when they get given the notes (that tend to send them into another scurry of panic) or they do a SAR and see them. Often these notes to them have little to no connection with the meeting from their perspective.

You may end up with a open request to comunicate the majority of your stuff that cannot be done face to face by email or they may attempt to engineer It by other methods such as emailing you with things like further to our meeting at x time I would like to clarify that xyz was discussed and xyz was agreed.

Sadly this is often viewed by the professional as tiresome or extra work or they just plain don't like putting things in writing so you don't bother. in reality it should be viewed as your failing because it means you have not been transparent you have not been clear, your meeting to the service user has not been the same as your notes and you have not managed a hugely important part of your job that being inspiring trust and by doing so you broke their trust the trust that they are obliged to place in you sometimes for the highest stakes you can think of.

[Marynary]

I think if it is over the phone, it is a bit different and fine to record. I always do it if making a complaint about something for example.

[Didiplanthis]

I am a HCP not mental health though. I had someone ask to record a conversation - I was a bit flustered as not been asked before but did a lightening mental whizz through the implications, pros, cons etc and decided as I had nothing to hide and saying no sounded suspicious there was no problem and managed to reply in a suitable timeframe to not sound strange ! Although I hadn't considered it being edited - that's a bit scary. I personally think it's ok to ask and don't think it should be refused. I would be comfortable with it if ever asked again.

[OhTheRoses]

I didn't have an issue with what you said at all Jacks, rather the poster who was being unilateral about it.

[jacks11]

Oh the roses

I don't think I actually said it would definitely be inadmissible in court- I said it may be inadmissible, which I do understand to be the case. I don't think it's about disempowering patients in the vast majority of cases, but that's just my opinion and I don't have any evidence either way.

[OnceThereWasThisGirlWho]

Thank you for all the considered replies. I do see that covert recording would be read suspiciously, and would prefer not to. However this was contact with the crisis team over the phone and I'm sure she'd have just hung up on me.

It was just bizarre that I was perfectly calm, in a deflated sort of way, and she accused me of shouting and screaming. Its this sort of denial of reality that freaks me out and makes everything seem so frightening. And why I'd like to be able to play it to someone else, even an advocate or someone, just to get a second opinion.

Although I have had a lot of crap from MH services an cannot access the help I need, the crisis team have in more recent times been helpful. or specifically, I have spoken to ones who appear to know how to speak to someone who's hurting or just basically treat someone as a human on equal footing. I ended up self harming as a reflex (it felt) even though I don't usually do that, because I felt so wound up inside and brain was overloaded. Nothing else in daily life makes me feel like that (except gaslighting and twisted logic/tactics from abusive ex). I have seen a nurse from police liasion team today and that was much better. It was the utterly weird and goady nature of it last night that freaked me out so much - tbh I don't know if I'd believe me which is why I thought about recording!

Am awaiting ASD assessment (*I do read nonverbal cues though) but basically have given up on services. Trying to get involved with local MH charity that seem good. It's just when it gets to such a point where the thoughts turn very dark and you realise you probably won't ask for help soon so had better do it now, it's difficult to think straight and weigh up whether it's going to help and is a bit of a lottery who you speak to.

OhTheRoses I think too it would be helpful for some cost benefit analysis to take place. The self harming teen who doesn't reach thresholds, who escalates, who drops out of education, who loses self esteem and then can't sustain healthy relationships or work reliably becoming dependent on benefits. Compared to the teen who gets support, stays at school, graduates and,enters the work place having been equipped with coping skills, perhaps having had underlying conditions identified: ME, ADHD (masked), ASD in girls, etc.

Exactly. My bill to the state must be huge. They could have given me say, five years of weekly therapy for a fraction of it. (I think I worked out that at the rate I was paying for private therapy [including room hire]) that would be £9000 - £10,000. That's less than one year on state benefits. It's also interesting that they're running with the potential ASD now despite it being me who suggested it and no-one spotting some flags along the way (I once saw a post on here with someone describing their Dsis who had these sort of "shutdowns", and it was just the same as what I presented with to MH services as main issue orignally. Loads of posters said "sounds like ASD".)

It's ok you can come out! I'm sure if you are in theory happy to be recorded (with consent - fair enough) then you're not doing anything awful!

The general complaints procedure seems massively biased. It's also really difficult to compain about general things, only specific incidents. So eg. if you keep being told different things by different people, with no clear care plan or whatever - you can't actually complain unless one of them is clearly lying or something.
I've spoken to PALS about a physical health issue/treatment and they totally understood why I was concerned and it all got sorted out (and I was re-referred, finally got diagnosed and operated on). But similar stuff in mental health and it's so difficult because it's all much more... subjective, maybe? Something like that. I mean, they actually use your psych notes as evidence, written by the person you're complaining about. .

The being recorded thing is reminding me of working in a nursing home. One day everyone was running round on edge and acting differently to usual. "Surprise inspection!" one of the nurses said as she dashed past. Found this a bit concerning. As far as I was concerned an inspector made no difference to the care I provided.

[paniccotta]

Hello Element. Do you think it's more likely that your BPD is causing your relationships with healthcare professionals to be so difficult? Or is it more likely that every HCP you've ever met has abused you?

[raviolidreaming]

If you are at the stage of wanting to covertly record conversations, then any therapeutic relationship is presumably gone and I wonder what benefit there is to your mental health in engaging with this support at all. Perhaps it would be more productive to use your energies to establish what support services will be of benefit, rather than fighting those which don't suit you?

[yorkshapudding]

OhtheRoses I'm not saying it's ok for HCP's to be ill-informed. Your question to me was "is it deceitful to say X" and I'm simply answering your question. If someone tells you something that isn't true, they could be deliberately lying or they could have made a mistake.