To covertly record mental health professionals?

[OnceThereWasThisGirlWho]

More an AIB legal... I know it sounds awful but after last nights incidents I need to somehow be able to show someone what they're like. I swear the crisis team woman was actually being goady. She seemed like she was purposely being difficult, obtrusive, and interacting with me in an inappropriate manner. I was trying my best to be calm and assertive - was quite good at "calm" as feeling so overwhlmed, hopeless and barely able to force the words out. But I swear this was actually pissing her off more, she actully said "If you're going to shout and scream at me..." which was just bonkers, I was just calmly and firmly repeating myself for the millionth time as she kept asking the same question. I wonder if she was doing it for the benefit of others in the room with her? to cover her back somehow cos she didnt want to speak to me? I dont know, it all seems crazy but I feel like i'm in an abusive relationship with them. No offence to decent MH professionals, but the coercion and obfuscation, and frankly, downright lies they have put in my notes ("Once said she sometimes likes to manipulate people to get what she wants" ) are freaking me out and part of what makes it all seem so hopeless.

Can I/is it legal to record them as evidence?

Needsasickamnesty I'm sorry I was just using that to illustrate that there are other reasons why we get stopped from working with families.

Also Yes I would be absolutely happy to be recorded if I knew about it before hand. I think if a client is covertly recording you the level of mistrust would be detrimental to working the case effectively.

Jesus! Not Needsasickamnesty, Needasockamnesty SORRY 😳

Needs - I am a cp social worker. I actually wish every conversation could be recorded, it would make my life much easier! However if a client covertly recorded me I would not be happy. I have nothing to hide, it is the covert bit I would have an issue with

I understand that I really do, but many service users get told that they are not allowed to because it's against the law or they are told if they wish to record they are being uncooperative or hostile the SW leaves and then for moths and moths down the line they are accused sometimes even formally of not engaging with professionals.

You are in a strange position when it comes to your service users the same as doctors are.

You go to someone's house or they to your place of work. they are expected to automatically trust you with no reason to do so other than a bit of plastic you use to open the door in your office, there is no expectation of trust placed on them by you you are encouraged to not trust them but they have to trust you yet you have the power to set wheels in motion for them to lose their children.

Yes it's judges that make the final decision and yes we get some distance between our actions and the outcome because of that but in the real world we all know that certain types of people tend to be believed more readily than others and when the believed ones state something it is treated as fact even if challenged.

There is good and bad, great and mediocre in all walks of life in all jobs as a service user your expected to just trust and hope that the professional knocking at your door is ok. I wouldn't knock anybody for covertly recording me under those circumstances.

restless sick is far more appropreate at the momi have HG.

I get what you meant and to a degree I agree with you. All of my staff use double record portable devices as well as a digital recording in a client to us meeting one gets handed to them we keep the other. With another service also involved we usually email the digital one if they want it (most don't) and keep both tape copies ourselves one remains sealed unless transcript is challenged. BUT the reasons for covert are often very sound.

And that is not the service users fault it's the fault of the power imbalance and every single piss poor dishonest none effictive staff member the decent ones have the misfortune of sharing a job title with.

NeedsaSockAmnesty and Jacks are being very helpful and insightful.

Trust has to be earnt in my opinion. Too many HCPs expect it automatically. The problem here isn't really about recordings, covert or otherwise. It's actually about providing MH care that is of a high standard, at the right time, consistently and in a joined up inter-agency manner across the country.

I think everyone would agree MH care is dire at present but it isn't all about lack of resources. A lit if it is due to poor local management and embedded poor practice which goes unchallenged.

I would welcome transparent communication and also some acknowledgement from those on the front line that MH care should be delivered more holistically and listen more carefully to the needs of individual patients with the emphasis on prevention and active management to support people to maximise their potential.

I think too it would be helpful for some cost benefit analysis to take place. The self harming teen who doesn't reach thresholds, who escalates, who drops out of education, who loses self esteem and then can't sustain healthy relationships or work reliably becoming dependent on benefits. Compared to the teen who gets support, stays at school, graduates and,enters the work place having been equipped with coping skills, perhaps having had underlying conditions identified: ME, ADHD (masked), ASD in girls, etc. Perhaps £1500-£2000 to help and support compared to an extra 0 over a lifetme, notwithstanding loss of earnings and tax to fund the NHS and cost of benefits because vulnerable people are declined help when they need it and when it could turn them round.

The present situation is terribly short-sighted and needs far greater acknowledgement by those involved in the provision of overall healthcare and those specifically responsible for providing MH care

A recording: "it's not admissible in a court."

That's is FACTUALLY incorrect.
Many recordings are used in court.
If it is in the 'best interests'.
My closest friend, a barrister, has confirmed this.

Indeed, I checked with my DH too, also a barrister.

Why would HCPs including MH professionals lie about this to people who are vulnerable? Thinks hard something to do with institutionalised disempowerment could it be to exert power over people who are vulnerable? Sadly it doesn't help insofar as the respect stakes are concerned.

I was a community MH nurse until very recently (dons flameproof suit ) and have also been a mental health service user myself in the past as well as having acted as an advocate for family members with MH issues, so I am looking at this from both sides of the coin.

I think it is the 'covert' part that I would find problematic. When I worked in MH, I would have had no problem with patients asking to record sessions (some have done, wasn't an issue) or having an independent advocate sit in to take notes. I can see why that would be useful and as long as I was also allowed to make my own recordings (because as pp have pointed out, a recording could edited) then it protects us both.

'Covert' recording is another thing altogether. By its very nature it indicates a deep mistrust that would make the therapeutic relationship untenable. Whilst I'm not sure I would "refuse" to work with a patient who did this as a pp suggested, I know I certainly wouldn't feel comfortable and I would worry that this discomfort might impact on the quality of our work together in the long run.

As an MH professional I am pleased to say that I had very positive relationships with most of my clients. However, over the years I have also been subjected to a lot of abuse. I have had patients threaten to assault me (physically and sexually) and then completely deny it, I have had someone threaten to kill my family, attempt to find out personal details about me and use to harass me outside of work..you name it. But I would never, ever use that as justification for recording sessions or phone conversations without their consent. So while OP may have valid reasons for being concerned about this MH worker, I don't think that necessarily justifies covert recording, especially if she hasnt tried to address her concerns via the Trust complaints procedure or advocacy first. Poor practice is indefensible and should always be challenged but there are ways of doing this that don't involve such blatant deception.

Yorksha whilst a covert recording is deceitful, I quite agree. Do you also think it's deceitful to tell people that recordings are illegal and inadmissable in court? Likewise I am aware of people who have been threatened with temporary sections because they don't wish to be voluntarily admitted in spite of being competent. It takes a strong will and a good advocate to resist that sort of threat. That's bullying as well as deceitful in my opinion and I think why relationships with Mental Health and HCPs flounder. Sadly I cannot trust people who pull those sorts of stunts, and no I imagine they don't like me for being robust and calling them out but the point is I shouldn't have to.

Yorksha I'm a mental health worker too. I work specifically with clients in the community who have Emotionally unstable personality disorder ( or borderline personality disorder) and these kind of issue do crop up a lot unfortunately. It's difficult with crisis teams as there are lots of different workers and having a consistent approach is difficult. Often clients with EUPD see things in very black and white and quite often crisis teams lack skills to manage EUPD clients well.
I would really stress though not to covertly record staff if you want to improve relationships

Yorksha whilst a covert recording is deceitful, I quite agree. Do you also think it's deceitful to tell people that recordings are illegal and inadmissable in court?

If you know tell someone covert recordings are illegal and you know for a fact they are not, of course that is deceitful. It is a very common misconception though and if someone repeats incorrect advice that they've been given, believing it to be correct then I'd say that person would be misguided rather than deceitful.

I don't think there's this huge conspiracy where all MH professionals are going round telling clients that all the time, knowing full well that it's false. Some people are dishonest, some are just misinformed, in most therapeutic relationships the subject would simply never come up.

But if they are misinformed about things like that how can patients trust them to be well informed about other things? Like their professional knowledge?

As a social worker I would not have a problem with people recording my conversations if they felt they needed to, as long as it is only that individual being discussed and not someone else. I would hope that they would ask me first but would understand why they might not. And if they did ask I wouldn't refuse.

OhtheRoses I'm not saying it's ok for HCP's to be ill-informed. Your question to me was "is it deceitful to say X" and I'm simply answering your question. If someone tells you something that isn't true, they could be deliberately lying or they could have made a mistake.

If you are at the stage of wanting to covertly record conversations, then any therapeutic relationship is presumably gone and I wonder what benefit there is to your mental health in engaging with this support at all. Perhaps it would be more productive to use your energies to establish what support services will be of benefit, rather than fighting those which don't suit you?

Hello Element. Do you think it's more likely that your BPD is causing your relationships with healthcare professionals to be so difficult? Or is it more likely that every HCP you've ever met has abused you?

Thank you for all the considered replies. I do see that covert recording would be read suspiciously, and would prefer not to. However this was contact with the crisis team over the phone and I'm sure she'd have just hung up on me.

It was just bizarre that I was perfectly calm, in a deflated sort of way, and she accused me of shouting and screaming. Its this sort of denial of reality that freaks me out and makes everything seem so frightening. And why I'd like to be able to play it to someone else, even an advocate or someone, just to get a second opinion.

Although I have had a lot of crap from MH services an cannot access the help I need, the crisis team have in more recent times been helpful. or specifically, I have spoken to ones who appear to know how to speak to someone who's hurting or just basically treat someone as a human on equal footing. I ended up self harming as a reflex (it felt) even though I don't usually do that, because I felt so wound up inside and brain was overloaded. Nothing else in daily life makes me feel like that (except gaslighting and twisted logic/tactics from abusive ex). I have seen a nurse from police liasion team today and that was much better. It was the utterly weird and goady nature of it last night that freaked me out so much - tbh I don't know if I'd believe me which is why I thought about recording!

Am awaiting ASD assessment (*I do read nonverbal cues though) but basically have given up on services. Trying to get involved with local MH charity that seem good. It's just when it gets to such a point where the thoughts turn very dark and you realise you probably won't ask for help soon so had better do it now, it's difficult to think straight and weigh up whether it's going to help and is a bit of a lottery who you speak to.

OhTheRoses I think too it would be helpful for some cost benefit analysis to take place. The self harming teen who doesn't reach thresholds, who escalates, who drops out of education, who loses self esteem and then can't sustain healthy relationships or work reliably becoming dependent on benefits. Compared to the teen who gets support, stays at school, graduates and,enters the work place having been equipped with coping skills, perhaps having had underlying conditions identified: ME, ADHD (masked), ASD in girls, etc.

Exactly. My bill to the state must be huge. They could have given me say, five years of weekly therapy for a fraction of it. (I think I worked out that at the rate I was paying for private therapy [including room hire]) that would be £9000 - £10,000. That's less than one year on state benefits. It's also interesting that they're running with the potential ASD now despite it being me who suggested it and no-one spotting some flags along the way (I once saw a post on here with someone describing their Dsis who had these sort of "shutdowns", and it was just the same as what I presented with to MH services as main issue orignally. Loads of posters said "sounds like ASD".)

It's ok you can come out! I'm sure if you are in theory happy to be recorded (with consent - fair enough) then you're not doing anything awful!

The general complaints procedure seems massively biased. It's also really difficult to compain about general things, only specific incidents. So eg. if you keep being told different things by different people, with no clear care plan or whatever - you can't actually complain unless one of them is clearly lying or something.

I've spoken to PALS about a physical health issue/treatment and they totally understood why I was concerned and it all got sorted out (and I was re-referred, finally got diagnosed and operated on). But similar stuff in mental health and it's so difficult because it's all much more... subjective, maybe? Something like that. I mean, they actually use your psych notes as evidence, written by the person you're complaining about. .

The being recorded thing is reminding me of working in a nursing home. One day everyone was running round on edge and acting differently to usual. "Surprise inspection!" one of the nurses said as she dashed past. Found this a bit concerning. As far as I was concerned an inspector made no difference to the care I provided.

Oh the roses

I don't think I actually said it would definitely be inadmissible in court- I said it may be inadmissible, which I do understand to be the case. I don't think it's about disempowering patients in the vast majority of cases, but that's just my opinion and I don't have any evidence either way.

I didn't have an issue with what you said at all Jacks, rather the poster who was being unilateral about it.

I am a HCP not mental health though. I had someone ask to record a conversation - I was a bit flustered as not been asked before but did a lightening mental whizz through the implications, pros, cons etc and decided as I had nothing to hide and saying no sounded suspicious there was no problem and managed to reply in a suitable timeframe to not sound strange ! Although I hadn't considered it being edited - that's a bit scary. I personally think it's ok to ask and don't think it should be refused. I would be comfortable with it if ever asked again.

I think if it is over the phone, it is a bit different and fine to record. I always do it if making a complaint about something for example.

All of those who think it's decietful or shows such a dreadful lack of trust.

Do you think your clients who may not even know you actually trust you? Even half of them?

If you do you are kidding yourself.

If you have some form of power or control over them and they are at a disadvantage it is unlikely that they do not know they are at a disadvantage and that you have power.

Chances are that as soon as they know you are coming they are freaking out, they are on forums asking advice usually on if they can covertly record you or how to talk with you in a way that is clear and you can't twist to fit any agenda some of them are phoning legal advisors or charitable support services to find out what they can expect and what you can and can't do, they are asking other people if they know you and if you are ok. Trust is usually the last thing on their minds.

You have an expectation that is sanctioned by the virtue of your employment that they trust you they have little to no choice this is a clear expectation upon them. They have no equal expectation of trust placed on them from you. You do not have to trust them so they cannot breach your trust you can only breach theirs.

You may if you are very good at your job inspire trust from them after they have met you but at no time during your contact with them does the power imbalence change and at no time does the trust dynamic change.

What often tends to happen is the stress of the nature of the meeting combined with they way professionals tend to comunicate with service users result in you walking away to write your notes up and the family has no idea what you said really meant and they only find out months down the line when they get given the notes (that tend to send them into another scurry of panic) or they do a SAR and see them. Often these notes to them have little to no connection with the meeting from their perspective.

You may end up with a open request to comunicate the majority of your stuff that cannot be done face to face by email or they may attempt to engineer It by other methods such as emailing you with things like further to our meeting at x time I would like to clarify that xyz was discussed and xyz was agreed.

Sadly this is often viewed by the professional as tiresome or extra work or they just plain don't like putting things in writing so you don't bother. in reality it should be viewed as your failing because it means you have not been transparent you have not been clear, your meeting to the service user has not been the same as your notes and you have not managed a hugely important part of your job that being inspiring trust and by doing so you broke their trust the trust that they are obliged to place in you sometimes for the highest stakes you can think of.

You need an advocate.

I didn't record but I did have that same experience of being told I was "shouting and screaming" when I was speaking in an absolutely level tone of voice.

I took a complaint and it took nearly nine months but ultimately I got a 32 page letter of apology. Now, five years on, I feel it was a monumental waste of everyone's time to get involved with it. It was deeply painful to be treated so poorly but the best I can advise is to seek support elsewhere if AT ALL possible and just pick your battles. Some of them are definitely not good ones... but it probably isn't worth your time or energy to engage with it.

"Often these notes to them have little to no connection with the meeting from their perspective."

And this. Unfortunately (and I say this as one, long pre-dating my mental health difficulties) HCPs are often very, very poor at correctly reporting their own biases and actions accurately and without prejudice and frequently massively overinterpret minor aspects of service user interactions.

When the police record an interview they do it on a machine that makes two copies, one for the person being interviewed and one for the police. This seems reasonable as no one can tamper with the recording, I mean edit it.