Do you want Democracy? Or not?

[Cleo1303]

We have just had the Referendum vote and Leave won.

Now we have everyone from David Lammy saying the Government should ignore the result, to Nicola Sturgeon and various London Remainers wanting Scotland and London to declare UDI.

So, do you want democracy where everyone's vote counts, or do you only want a vote when the result suits you and matches your own opinion?

Honest answers please.

Taking the country through a seismic change, that half the electorate opposes, on a majority of 4% is not democracy. For an issue of this momentous significance a much bigger majority is needed.

The truth is that referenda take complex issues and reduce them to yes/no vote. They require the electorate to have a complete grasp of the issues and consequences of their vote. As a political instrument they are deadly to true democracy.

....

This wasn't democracy. The public were spoon-fed lies.

I haven't heard one idea from those who voted out about what they think will happen now. Just a wait and see, and not without a hint of panic behind the eyes.

I think we should ask again. If we get the same answer, so be it. But we should ask again now that the chickens have come home to roost and we can hear how loudly they are clucking.

I think we're in a royal mess now.

If the result is ignored, it is bad for the country, bad for the majority who voted for it who would have the right to get monumentally angry , bad for democracy.

However I truly believe if we start the Leave process, things will be awful as well. For the vast majority of young people who did not vote for this future, for Scots and people in Northern Ireland who didn't vote for it and will probably seek to leave the UK effectively meaning the end of the UK. How can we call ourselves United anything if we are just England and Wales?

Also if we leave the EU but keep in the single market and therefore keep freedom of movement therefore with little effect on immigration, I can't see how a lot of Brexiters arent going to feel cheated and lied to since immigratipn was a key reason so many voted Leave.

The only way we can 'win' now as a country, I think, is if we get out of the EU and then the EU promptly implodes and goes to shit. But will it happen? And when? And would we necessarily be any less in the shit? Will our own United Kingdom already have splintered and fractured by then?

I hate that now, to feel positive about the choice my country has made, I have to hope the EU will fail. Horrible.

"I think we should ask again. If we get the same answer, so be it. But we should ask again now that the chickens have come home to roost and we can hear how loudly they are clucking."

This.

I think now that the lies have been revealed and even the most stupid may suspect that they have been conned, it would be reasonable to hold the referendum again.

It's only democracy when it suits the remain camp

I want Nicola Sturgeon to be able to block leaving Europe, I want Jeremy Corbyn to stand down, I want a strong Labour leader, Labour should be running rings round the Conservatives now but they cant.

People like speakergirl say that democracy is listening to the results of the vote. That, actually, is untrue.

The definition of a democratic government is "a system of government in which all the people of a state or polity ... are involved in making decisions about its affairs, typically by voting to elect representatives to a parliament or similar assembly"

The country was INVOLVED. Our opinion was asked. Our elected representatives do NOT have to listen that opinion if they feel it is not in the national interest. That is still democracy, because we elected them to act for us.

So what are you getting your panties in a bunch about?

I think there should be a second referendum once we have an actual plan in place.

This one was all about political posturing on both sides; no one expected a leave vote and I certainly don't think either Boris or Gove really wanted it.

I wonder if the leave votes would be happy if we kept free movement of people in exchange for remaining a member of the EEA, for example. I suspect not, however it is a possibility.
On the other hand, as a remainer I would be more likely to vote leave if there were assurances that this was what was on the cards.

This referendum was farcical and very much voted on by 'gut feeling' rather than facts.

In the run up to the referendum, members of the public repeatedly admitted their own ignorance and pleaded for help from the government (who created a referendum) for information. This happened on every TV show (question time etc).

The government could have resolved this. It could have put on talks and classes. It could have created TV programmes explaining all about parliament, the EU, EEA, ECHR, immigration rules, trade rules and so on.

But it didn't.

So people had to vote based on that situation.

Posted this on another thread.

I can totally understand and appreciate why people are upset with the result.

However what is not right is to be upset at the process.

Im pretty sure someone could get a referendum on capital punishment past 50% ( especially if there was a high profile "evil" serial killer to base the vote on). Or maybe some kind of restriction on abortion, or freedom of speech, maybe gay marriage if enough intolerance of fear and blame was whipped up.
Essentially "democracy" has become some kind of Xfactor style poll in which complex arguments are reduced to soundbites and celebrity endorsements.

I believe in representative democracy in which we elect people who we believe will best represent our communities best interests, and spend their time debating and make tough decisions in the countries best interests.

With power comes responsibility. I don't think people have really thought that aspect of democracy through. I absolve some power to Westminster/EU whatever and at the same time expect them to take responsibility for the choices that are made.

Essentially "democracy" has become some kind of Xfactor style poll in which complex arguments are reduced to soundbites and celebrity endorsements

Absolutely dave and I totally agree with your whole post.

Jamie - why isn't it right to be upset at the process?

Would you have accepted that the process was correct if the result had been reversed?

If so, how can you say that the process is flawed?

If anything, the FPTP system in the GE has contributed to this. A large part of the population felt like their voice was not being heard. They have used their vote in the referendum - possibly for the wrong reasons - but they have used their vote regardless to make their voices heard.

The person who started the petition was from the leave camp, in the event of a remain win.

So it's alright the other way around....

www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/william-oliver-healey-referendum-petition_uk_576f8b28e4b0232d331e1b39

If the result had been reversed it would still be too close.

The main thing I am angry about re: the process is that in voting Leave, it is unclear what was being voted for. In or or out of the EEA? In or out of Freedom of Movement? Immigration was obviously a key issue for a lot of people, but it is not clear at all that there will be any change to immigration now.

In voting to Remain, it was clear what you were voting for, as there was already a re-negotiated deal on the table.

Carrie it would not be ok either way, it was a democratically voted for result. I would never have signed the petition, neither would my husband and he voted Remain.

If the result was reversed I would still think the referendum shouldn't have happened. I would just be relieved that it didn't do the damage it could have done. I would hope that it would never be attempted again though.

Farage said that if it was a small majority in favour of remain and I quoute: "4% would leave unfinished business".

He wouldn't have accepted this, neither would those have you who voted to leave.

The misinformation given to people and the fact that many in economically deprived areas saw this as a protest vote demonstrate that this was far too big a decision to make on such a small majoritiy.

Also note, in a democracy things can be challenged, its one of the reasons you leavers wanted to leave the EU because you erroneously claimed that we couldn't do this with the EU.

But then, you only want democracy when it suits you.

I don't understand how it's democracy for jo public to vote on something so unbelievably vital.

Also, it's effectively an opinion poll I think, not legal.

Scotland want a 2nd referendum.

The key issues for leave, were the 'extra' money we'd have. And the immigration. Hmmm.

Instead we have a shitstorm.

Marynary - yes, should never have happened in the first place.