Do you want Democracy? Or not?

[Cleo1303]

We have just had the Referendum vote and Leave won.

Now we have everyone from David Lammy saying the Government should ignore the result, to Nicola Sturgeon and various London Remainers wanting Scotland and London to declare UDI.

So, do you want democracy where everyone's vote counts, or do you only want a vote when the result suits you and matches your own opinion?

Honest answers please.

I'm not shallow. I've just been through enough elections, referendums and other votes to know that the vast majority vote how the media tells them.

People can't be arsed to have their own opinions these days, they like to be told what to think.

Both camps lied and distorted facts. Voters on both sides were misled. This referendum came about because Cameron made promises to the rest of his party because otherwise the planet-sized egos of posh white boys who think they have a right to rule the world would tear the Conservatives apart.

That's democracy to you?

It's nearly impossible get democracy to work. "All people are equal, but some are more equal than others".

Sure, people voted leave, but they were MASSIVELY hoodwinked.

They were given misinformation on which to base their votes. How is that democratic ffs!

I wasn't hoodwinked. I have wanted to leave the EU long before this campaign. I am well aware of the facts thanks.

I do think democracy counts. Which is why I'd be keen for parliamentary reform, an elected 2nd chamber and an abolition of the monarchy.

But this result leaves a nasty taste in the mouth because the leave campaign was built on lies. There was no coherent plan of action put forward for either option. Other EU government's seem to have put more time and effort into strategising a leave vote than our own. The people may have had their say but no one in this country's government seems to have a clue what is going to happen next.

All we have now is economic, social and political uncertainty.

All animals are equal

Not on this issue, no.

I completely 100% agree with this:
Secondly, this vote should never have gone to the public. Barely anyone had a true grasp of the facts to make a decent decision. So many have messed with our economy and future as an United Kingdom just for a fun gamble it seems, at worst on false or manipulated information. Joe Bloggs was never in a position to make a decision of this magnitude

I don't agree with the ideas about 2nd referendums or bits of the UK splitting off but I do think the government should exercise its right to veto this. A referendum doesn't guarantee action and in this case I don't think it should. Total career and political suicide for most of the government and a huge betrayal of trust for the public who voted in good faith of being heard BUT the consequences of going through with leaving the EU are, in my opinion, worse that those things.

Another one here who wasn't hoodwinked I've wanted to leave the EU as long as I can remember. I voted out from an undesirable, unworkable EU Superstate. Patronize me to your hearts content I would never and will never vote for the EU.

The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter.

Why don't we do a referendum for the death penalty ? And if it's over 50% (which after yesterday it might be !) we can reintroduce it

Some issue are too complex to be agreed by a hurried yes/no vote

What is this democracy everyone keeps talking about? Asking the general public to make a yes or no decision about a question that even economists struggle with? It is damn right irresponsible.
If we stay half the country says they are suffering, if we leave the other half are destroyed. Surely the government should have sought to reduce the damage on both sides before leaving it to a public where the most widely read newspaper is the sun.
I blame Cameron as he gambled with people's livelihoods. We are so totally fucked.

We need democracy, but for it to work properly, we need honest, truthful campaigning.

How the hell can people make an informed decision based on lies?

I'm a theoretical remain (no vote, gone too long)

My half British son cannot go to a a British uni if EU student fees rise, with loans no longer available for those outside of Britain.

The banking system in the country where I live is having a wobble (nobody is sure how temp. this may be) as result of Brexit. All my money is in one of the aforementioned banks.

I'm going to have to take on citizenship of a country I still don't quite feel ready to say I belong to.

Brexit has encouraged people who want an Italeave referendum. So I potentially face uncertainty x2

My industry in the EU relies on a steady stream of British immigrants coming in as front line workers. There aren't enough Irish people to cover the loss if the British become unfeasable due to hurdles and hoop jumping. I anticipate a shrinkage in the face to face part of the market and growth in the online model. Unfortunately the online model offers wages that make the meagre wages of f2f look positively ritzy.

Italy is not my first rodeo as an economic migrant. I went to Asia first. Whilst there a(nother) military coup eventually culminated in soldiers being ordered to fire on a huge mass of peaceful, and unarmed protesters. It happened first at the top of my road and then outside my gate as protesters fled. People died. Many many more were left with life limiting and life changing injuries.

Some of the fired upon protesters were uneducated to a degree you rarely see in Europe. Some held opinions others in the country (let alone the international community) found offensive. Some were plain old stupid. Some would believe any vote seeking fucker if he said things they wanted to hear.

But they wanted their voice to be heard and count when it came to the running of their country. And some of them were maimed, or died because they stood up for their right to democracy.

A second referendum in Britain might wipe out the disadvantages I am at risk of thanks to Brexit. I still won't support a do over. Becuase as flawed as democracy is, it beats the arse off the alternative.

By the same token, while I don't hold the view that leave voters are a 17 million strong army of stupid, uneducated and offensive people , ....even if they were... one person, one vote. Not one person, one vote, but only if the person is the "right" sort of person with the "right" sort of opinions.

Been there, done that, didn't like it one tiny bit.

Asking the general public to make a yes or no decision about a question that even economists struggle with? It is damn right irresponsible.

Totally this. Cameron took a monumental gamble for short term political gain, and now having thrown us off the cliff with no landing in site he has fucked off. Cunt.

I don't believe this is a good example of democracy.
Very few voters had the knowledge to be able to give an educated vote, most voted on the basis of the lies they were told (although to be fair the remain campaign was shit).

Agree with stopfucking's post above.

The U.K. General public is not informed enough to make this vote. It should never have been allowed. And if you disagree, read the link and defend it.
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/jun/25/view-wales-town-showered-eu-cash-votes-leave-ebbw-vale

During the Scottish independence referendum we were told by 'Better Together' that the only way to guarantee EU membership was to vote No. I voted no. EU membership was a key factor in my decision to vote to stay as part of UK.

Now, England and Wales have voted to leave the EU - Scotland showed a clear wish to remain.

SNP manifesto for our elections last month said that a material change in circumstances such as being forced out of EU against our will would result in indyref2. SNP were voted in with majority (n.b. in a parliament with proportional representation designed so that no-one should have an overall majority).

So now Wales and England have voted to leave EU and Scotland and Northern Ireland disagree.

Nicola Sturgeon says indyref2 back on the table.

There is nothing undemocratic about it.

Is it democratic for the most vulnerable to rhetoric to be fed lies? And they were lies, no point in arguing otherwise now.

In this context I mean vulnerable to mean, the poor, the disenfranchised, the least educated (no I do not mean university education or you're thick).

I don't think that is democracy. The Sun/The Daily Mail spent months hyping people up into a Brexit frenzy. Now Brexit has happened what are they doing? Oh, telling people what it will cost.

Joe Bloggs has just as much right to vote. How conceited your attitude is. Public servants (i.e.. the politicians) had a duty to set things out in layman terms and all they did was squabble and use disgusting tactics to try to "win". Im very excited for the future.

sweary

I am appalled by the Welsh vote, it is the biggest show of ignorance I have ever seen.

Cardiff strongly voted to remain. Cardiff also has a much more ethnically diverse population than the areas which voted to leave.

For the first time in my life I am ashamed to be Welsh, but proud to be from Cardiff.

It is easy to other when you can count on one hand how many times you have met a brown/black/Eastern European person.

Alisvolatrpis

I know the feeling - I have spent my adult life being proud of being Scottish, British and European. Not quite so proud of the British bit at the moment.

I don't know where we are going at the moment - either Scotland or the UK - all I feel is sadness that I have come to the point that I am now seriously thinking of of voting to leave the UK.

sweary my husband and I are discussing moving our family from Wales elsewhere in light of this vote. Regardless of whether the UK recovers from this economically, I don't want to bring up our child in such an inwards looking environment.

Not like this, I don't. This democracy is stupid.