To think that it's time Classism became as much of a No-no as Racism, Sexism or Homophobia?

[Just5minswithDacre]

Starting with MN talk guidelines?

Only just seen this thread.

YANBU to be heartily fucked off, the ageism & classism I've seen in the last couple of days are foul.

BUT! Like Usual I'm not arsed about it being left up - it shows up the spiteful & superior posters in their true colours, however hard they try to paint themselves as 'left leaning' and 'sympathetic'.

The degree thread was hysterical.

Doesn't it just Mango. At the end of the day democracy won, thankfully.

It's certainly rude and offensive but I'm not sure how on earth you could turn it into a protected characteristic, how would you decide who needs protecting?
Thinking of our friends, DH grew up in east London and one of his best friends is a locksmith/handyman with just GCSEs but when it comes to brexit and other political issues he's very engaged (in his case he voted remain because although he thought brexit might be better for him he thought remaining would be better for the country) He certainly doesn't need protecting.

Or me, I grew up in a pretty dodgy road and my parents still live there...but then i got myself a couple of degrees and some cath kidston mugs...have I un working classed myself.

Also my solicitor mate thought Jamaica was in Africa, so just having a degree doesn't magically make you good at everything

YANBU. There are some very snobby people on here and as long as they are careful about what they snobby about, it is apparently OK.

For example I've learnt that it is apparently perfectly acceptable to be snobby about:

Caravans and trade vans parked on driveways or on the street, because they 'lower the tone'.
Baby names - there was a thread the other day about how awful 'Keith' was and the OP just wanted to use it as a middle name in honour of the baby's Grandad. See also names beginning with the letter K and anything like Ellie May or similar. Acceptable MN names must not be in the top 100
Flying the English flag, because anyone who does that is a knuckledragging racist.
Tattoos
Smoking
Shopping in Asda or Iceland

All of the above are overwhelmingly more popular in working class rather than middle class circles so are definitely classism whether directly or indirectly.

And just look at the angst about living in the right house on the right street in the right area near the right schools. If that isn't about not wanting to mix with WC people, I don't know what is.

Barbara, I was called a 'scum English chav' on a thread earlier on
Quelle horreur!

Before I make my point I think that everyone should be nicer and kinder to each other regardless of age, race, sexuality etc.

And although the term chav is meant as a derogatory term it is not referring to working class- it is used to define the "underclass" (your Jeremy Kyle types) I am not trying to be classist btw - I am more describing a way of life that some people live their life by. Society has always had the "underclass" (think Hogarth's Gin lane)

I moved from a predominantly "underclass" area. I'll tell you why. My then 3 year old was assaulted by the drug dealer 3 doors down whose brother is inside for murder, somebody got shot around the corner, somebody got shot 2 streets away. My daughter went to pick up a needle outside the library... I could go on. Just last week three 12 year olds were hospitalised for taking ecstasy...

Now if anyone thinks I am a snob for wanting to get the hell out then fair enough, I have moved to a very working class area in a different part of the country (where the majority here are lovely decent people) Honest and friendly. We also have a really large Romanian and Polish community. I deal with them where I work daily. The majority of them of work. (some crap shifts in crap jobs)
The people who have discussing the referendum (again where I work) moaning about immigrants have been mainly the elderly.
Now I'm not daft enough to think that every senior citizen voted out. My dad is a pensioner who voted in, as is my MIL.

What I am trying to say I guess in a really garbled way is that stating what I have seen is not classist or ageist or any other "ist." What would be is me assuming that 70 year old Mrs Smith next door must be a xenophobe and voted out without me not knowing actually whether she voted at all.
If we know someone and we have an opinion of them based on what we see and know it is not "ist" to have that opinion.
"Working class" is not the section of society that most people are describing here.

I don't think chavvy is used on MN in that way (to describe people with chaotic lives, addictions, criminal records). It's more about fashion (clothes, names, cars) that isn't considered naice and tasteful by the middle classes. Pure snobbery.

It's difficult because aside from snobbery I think we need to talk about class as part of understanding what's happened to this country, but oversimplifying and othering doesn't help.

So Johnson and Farage based their campaign on blatant lies that have been admitted as such as soon as the vote was announced. And were backed up in this by parts of the press. I think 'educated' people were more likely to read more widely and have found out the £350 million a week for the NHS claim was a lie.

In some places and for some people, the push to leave the EU was fuelled massively by racism. Immigrants are an easy scapegoat when people are finding life difficult - have been throughout history. It doesn't help anyone to pretend the connection doesn't exist. Nor does lots of middle-class people pontificating about poor people all being racist. Why does racism get a foothold in some areas with low immigration and not in others with higher immigration?

Sorry, that's a bit of a tangent. Should MN delete "I don't want to go there, it's full of chavs" posts? Probably not, but we need to challenge more.

Now if anyone thinks I am a snob for wanting to get the hell out then fair enough,
No one would think you a snob for trying to find a better place to live, the problems arise when people prejudge you for living there in the first place, and tar all those living their in the same way.
I've been on mumsnet for years, and the last few days have felt really uncomfortable with the way people view poorer people (taking the whole in/out eu issues aside) that fact that I don't own my own home, or the fact that I'm less educated than others, or. don't earn lots of money this has somehow has lead to people suggesting that I shouldn't have a vote!
That I'm thick as shit with no teeth, being really quite offensive To people who don't meet there own standards, I know people are angry, but in one sweeping breath people sling about the word racist while stereotyping a whole section of community. It's makes me wonder how all of this transfers to my life and I'm really precevied by people because my clothes are cheap rather than Boden.

Or me, I grew up in a pretty dodgy road and my parents still live there...but then i got myself a couple of degrees and some cath kidston mugs...have I un working classed myself.

See, I don't think it does. My dad was MC, my Mum was WC, I've spent my life in and out of both, geographically, economically and culturally. I have a foot in both camps, regardless of what this years tax return says. Or my kitchenalia

I don't recall anyone welcoming me into the U.K. I do recall paying £500,000 in income tax and NI over 12 years while listening to a developing media culture blaming EU migrants for everything that is a problem in this country. Incidentally, EU migrants didn't run grooming gangs (Rotherham) and didn't plant bombs on the tube or really do anything much at all. However, we are white so an easy target because nobody can be accused of being racist in targeting us.

I've been judged by English people and I'm damn well entitled to judge them back. The attitudes of a big chunk of English people arise from having been pandered to for years by politicians, the media, etc.

What does that mean retro?

You feel that because you weren't welcomed warmly enough, because you were charged income tax, (connected ideas?) you can abuse the poor or the culturally WC?!?

I'm struggling to see the relevance or understand what you mean.

Check out retro's manifesto in the democracy do you want it? thread.

Check out how retro posted on a thread last night - chav underclass, drug addicts etc.

Utterly charming.

Do we want democracy?? Yikes. Maybe later

Oh I see. Nice

I just went to find the thread, it was the one about 'not talking to my neighbour because they voted leave, and now I think they're racist xenophobes'.

All her posts have been deleted, they were awful btw.

Also all her posts deleted on the 'Hilary Benn has been sacked' thread.

Does classism work the other way too?
What about 'posh', 'chinless wonder' 'snooty toffs' etc?
Would they still be allowed?

See now I don't think people's post should be deleted, they should be shown up for who they really are.

I read these threads lately and it makes me wonder: is this why I didn't gel with my nct group, because they all look at me in my rented home, driving my 9 year old car and think she's not as valid as me therefore I will exclude them from the group. It's just makes me wonder.

No I don't like deletions that much either.

I was going to make a similar point dapplegrey. Strangers on the Internet might snigger at someone naming their child Kourtney or calling to Kylie in the supermarket, but they'll also smirk in the same way at Horatio or Persephone. It isn't pleasant either way, and a culture where that's pointed out is a good thing. Not sure banning or deleting is the way to go though.

Yes there is a reverse snobbery aswell, but you tend to find where there's money there's power, so whilst someone might laugh because they called there child .... It doesn't really hold them back, judging someone because they live in a council estate or their degree comes from a different type of uni does.