to still have no clue which way to vote on Thursday?

[DowntonIsMyHome]

I've looked at the BBC referendum check thing to try to get through the spin but it hasn't helped much

I'm a single parent at uni doing a post grad that will end next year, then I will qualify. I have a council house and barely made ends meet before quitting work to do the course

not sure if any of that means I should lean towards in or out but my whole family are 'out', citing life as 'better' before the EU and immigration as their reasons (I don't have the same view re immigration as they do, though)

argh.... the deadline is hurtling towards me and I ain't got a clue!

I'm voting remain. I fear leaving will screw over British industries such as farming - leavers say all the money that we will save from the EU will go back into such things and the NHS, but I've watched the Tories screw over the mining and steel industry. I don't see them putting any 'savings' back into our economy.

I've yet to see a single, rational, substantiated argument to leave.

I like your thinking Marge Fozzley that's a good example of a rational assessment. Also, perhaps mine? I have kept my own counsel on this, and stopped reading the two camps arguments some time ago. I am no Euro fan & most Eurocrats make me puke. But I believe in alliances, and I think Europe will reform -it has to! I think a lot is blamed on Europe when it is actually the fault of our own gov't. As for sovereignty, we lose a bit of that every time we sign up to a treaty or other international accord.

Just for those saying Boris will be the next PM if we vote leave - of course he's not! Has noone noticed that the Tories are ripping themselves apart at the moment? There's a good chance the party will split if it's a close vote either way (under 60% for the way we go), at that point, the Tories will need a new PM who can unite the party - and Boris is not it. Interestingly, I don't think Osborne is either - who was being tipped as the next PM. There are some high profile Tories who've kept their heads down through this - said the party line now and then, but not really come out fighting for either side, there's clearly a few people who have their eyes on the prize of the next leader.

If it's a vote remain, Cameron will stay in situ for a couple of years, let the dust settle then the leadership campaign will start (as he's already said he's going before the 2020 election). Boris will be too closely linked with 'leave' and being a failure to get the job. If it's vote leave, then Cameron will have to go sooner, but still, it's unlikely the 'remain' members of the Tory party will vote for Boris. Boris might well end up heading up a splinter party (not UKIP, but another party on the right), but not the Tories.

The view that the Tories have to win the next election, (or without Labour taking scotland, it'll be a Conservative government for the forseeable) assumes the Tories don't split, and it is going to take someone very impressive to pull this party back together again.

The Tories are in a mess no matter what - the closer the vote, the less likely either side will just accept it. The SNP are still going on about scotland leaving the UK as it was 'only' 55% who voted to stay.

Millymolly you spoke my mind, I agree with every points you made

People forget that back in the 70s we were known as the sick man of Europe and begging to join the eu. Admittedly it was more a common market than now. When we first joined we got a lot of financial help from the eu. There is a lot wrong with the eu,but it will change as many countries ard not happy with the excessive bureaucracy. I have ooohed and aahed endlessly but am now confident to vote in. Brexit would almost certainly throw us into recession. If I was you, I would vote in but not tell anyone..unless you can bear to have to keep arguing with people who disagree.

Foolsgold - thanks for your post - Ive been searching for something like this, finally made up my mind.

I assume Manana is joking. Gove wanted our kids to learn the 16 times table...so if we Brexit perhaps he will want us to go back to pounds and oz (16 oz to the pound) and feet and inches. Tricky if we wanted to trade with metric eu!

thanks everyone. I've found this very interesting.

for those saying I'm unkind regarding my relatives, the tragic fact is that I'm right. I had a conversation with my mum that went something like...

"I want to stop the immigrants. there's no space."
"there's plenty of space but not necessarily in the south east (where we live) and there are more from outside the EU coming in anyway which won't stop."
"But I want to stop the immigrants. The town isn't English any more. I can walk around and not hear an English person speak {patently not true} and the Polish men take all the seats in the coffee shop and stay all day when I want to go and chat with my friends."
"most of those issues are nothing to do with the EU...."
"but the immigrants are taking all our jobs...."
"no they're not... you don't even work..."
"yes they are... ask your uncle..."
"OK mum.... [sigh ]"

I think I'm voting in, but I'll not tell my family!

I have read a lot of stuff to help me decide. If I hadn't then I think just looking at the shower of cunts on the exit side would be enough to convince me I'd be unlikely to share their view.

Sympathies OP.....my conversation with my mum went :"But really, when you go to your auntie's part of London you can't hear anybody speaking English any more, all these Poles etc". "But mum, it's London! When have there ever not been immigrants in London? This is just the modern equivalent of all those "No blacks, no Irish, no dogs" signs from the 1960s!" "No no, those were terrible, those were racist and completely wrong, but this is different, obviously..."

(sigh)

I am voting remain because for my business it would have significant negative consequences if we were to leave.

However from a personal view I think there are some strong reasons for both view points and i actually sit on the fence as to what is best for the long term.

Europe as it stands today has a number of issues - not least a perceived democratic deficit - i.e. the people making decisions are not the same people we elected.
the same could be said for the Scottish, the Welsh and really any regional population in the UK with regards Westminster.

This is surely the key negative for anyone who is happy to live in a democracy - the price of living in a democracy is that occasionally the people you didn't vote for get into power and enact policies you do not like - whether this is on immigration, employee rights, human rights, farming subsidies etc

So the issue is do you want to be part of a bigger democracy (if it actually works) i.e. the EU or do you want to have more say in what happens over a much smaller region, the UK, England, Greater London, Hounslow, a street ?

Will Europe become "more democratic"? I don't know?

Would it be economically painful to leave? probably in the short term, who knows in the long term.

Would the UK survive and flourish in the long term - I think so - I have huge faith in the compassion, intelligence, ingenuity and diligence of the UK population overall...

That is my thought process - it may or may not be helpful....

People who say there are no facts on either side are just plain wrong, there's no facts on the 'leave' side and, because they know this, they want us to believe the same is true for the 'remain' side.

The lecture from Liverpool uni and Last Week Tonight sum it up pretty well, if we vote leave we'll still have to conform to EU rules, including immigration, but we'll forfeit our ability to actually create the legislation. We gain huge benefits from the EU, including investment and free trade among other things.

It's just seems like an utterly bizarre to want to leave right now.

Downton unfortunately thanks to our far right and UKIP that's the level of 'debate' you get - sanctioned racism/xenophobia with no actual base in reality. It's constant parroting of 'immigrants bad' - supposedly taking all the jobs and houses which is complete nonsense.

I think the default position should be to vote 'remain', if you don't have a particular reason to change things.

my whole family are 'out', citing life as 'better' before the EU and immigration as their reasons

Even if life was better before the EU (and we were a lot poorer as a society, if that's your yardstick) aren't they making the mistake of equating stuff that happened when we're in the EU with things that happened because we were in the EU?

It was over 40 years ago! They might as well blame the introduction of microwave ovens or the internet.

well this guy isn't the far right is he? Labour Mp Frank field?

Vote leave for the POOR? Find compassion in your heart and vote leave. Is he also a DM reader or do you think he is responding to the crisis he has seen in his own constituency of Birkenhead?

if you don't have a particular reason to change things
The EU is the change we have been governing ourselves for donkeys years.

The EU is the change and further change to come, if you want to vote for status quo you will vote leave!

I share your concerns mananana about the countryside being concreted over, environmental issues and the destruction of the countryside are a big concern of mine. However I'm not convinced the EU can stop it.

Don't forget that if we Remain, we're signing up to uncontrolled population increases for ever. Going on the past few years, this will be a net increase of a million every 3 years. This rate will itself increase, as those new arrivals themselves have children.

That will result in a gigantic environmental impact - not just new houses, but new power stations, landfill sites, sewage farms, reservoirs, factories, roads, railways, airports etc. Native habitats and species destroyed for ever.

Good decision OP. You know it makes sense ;)

Limer on this or another thread I pointed out someone I know is remain but is furious that land is being used for houses when there are species habitats there!!

You cant have it both ways!

In response to the above post it's worth noting thst expert opnion was much more divided on whether we should join the Euro. That line has been wheeled out by the leave campaign and is another fib, or half truth at best.

amicissimma Does it matter - can you name the permanent under secretaries for the various government departments? It's a similar function. The EU model of elected MEPs then appointed functionaries is virtually the same as the UK democratic model.

If the medical profession tells you fatty foods and salt is bad for you do ignore expert medical advice? If an engineer advises you running your car without a regular oil check is a bad idea do you ignore expert advice? Do you ignore climate change advice from experts? Legal advice from experts?

No financial expert thinks leaving is a good idea - all advise against it. Yes you can ignore that and go for the 'close your eyes and cross your fingers' school of economics and watch businesses go down the swannee but there are no reputable independent studies or analyses that show exiting the EU leaving the UK in a stronger financial position - the Leave representatives were asked if there were any, they said there weren't.

It takes years to negotiate a trade deal - we would have to do that with dozens of countries. We have access to the best deal there is now - Norway etc have to pay to access, have to comply with all the legislation the Leave campaign thinks we can avoid but get no say in how things are run - that's the position we would be in, paying as we do now for less.

I live in Cornwall and a lot of people have told me they are voting Leave. I have heard the EU is undemocratic and it wastes money and they can't balance the books. What amazes me is the leavers think the UK government will do a better job without the EU on their back. Is anyone saying the UK government doesn't waste money because I am sure that isn't the case. I am voting remain as I am cautious by nature and I think the leave campaign are liars (not saying the remain are much better). I got a pamphlet today with the scaremongering story from LEAVE that 5 Eastern European countries are set to join EU. Turkey has been trying since the 80s to join and is no where near fulfilling the criteria to join and if we are in the EU we have the power to veto. If we leave we have no say.

I also think our economy will suffer in the short to medium term, maybe long term. If we are isolated from our nearest neighbours with large companies threatening to move overseas if we BRexit and in a decade or so we may just be a small insignificant country. I am just sceptical that leaving the EU is going to be better for us overall.