To be worried that the Brexiteers might be wrong and an economic disaster is waiting if we leave?

[Girlwithnotattoos]

What if we wake up on Friday out of the EU, probably nothing immediately other than some soul searching by the remainders. But what about in the months to come? What if all the economists and world leaders were right? We could be heading down the swanny big time, companies moving to the EU proper, jobs going left right and centre, deficit increasing because of lost revenues (taxes, vat etc).

I've listened to the fervent Brexiteers who have dismissed everything put to them as propaganda and yet they still haven't come up with a plan to counter the 'what if' scenarios. Am I the only one to be worried that nobody has a plan B if the economy does slow down to tune of 1.4%to 6% as predicted bearing in mind that a reduction of just 0.4% would counteract any saving to be made on what we contribute to the EU?

[chilipepper20]

You can talk about under funding all you like the bare facts are neither Labour nor this Government have helped the NHS. We know its haemorrhaging money, it does not properly bill other users from outside the EU, we don't chase money we don't do anything, we seem incapable of it.

it seems odd to me to blame the EU for home grown problems. Sure, membership in the EU may exacerbate some problems. Immigration puts demand for housing up, but low interest rates and endless planning permission are entirely under our control (interest rates are complicated, but it's not the EU's fault).

what you mention though is a completely clear cut case of a problem entirely under our control. We certainly don't bill outsiders correctly, but that's 100% our fault. I have knowledge of living of three countries (I am from the US and lived in many states, and now live in the UK, but have visited Canada a lot on account of family), and the UK is the only place that doesn't have some kind of health card. I remember registering at my GP for the first time. I didn't know what to bring so I brought everything under the sun: my passport, visa, rental document, employment contract, and a few more things. How many did they ask to see? 0. They just asked for my name and address. I could have been a tourist making it all up, and they wouldn't have known.

[Showmethewaytogohome]

Magicboy I'd rather have a plan than a promise of an apology tho. Don't you?

In fact a promise of an apology regarding a recession is rather worrying when you think about it - Boris' usual bluster doesn't entertain the idea of failure.......

[bertsdinner]

I think you're right there chilipepper. My mum broke her wrist in Germany, visiting my brother, she had an E111 and insurance. As she didnt have her insurance docs on her at the hospital, they wouldnt treat her until my brother used his credit card to act as guarantor.
I think the NHS is a mess, but I cant see how it's the EUs fault.
On the topic of immigration, I think the government could cut it more (outside EU), but choose not to.
I am voting leave, but I do think the EU is used as a scapegoat for government failings/unpopular decisions. Labour and tory are equally guilty of this, I think.

[LuluJakey1]

BBC News tonight. EU announces there can be no re-negotiation of Britain's membership terms of EU. It will remain as it is.

[glassgarden]

indeed!
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36599300
''Mr Juncker made it clear there would be no scope for further negotiations over better terms to try to keep the UK on board.
"I have to add that the British policymakers and the British voters have to know there will be no kind of any renegotiation," he told reporters after talks with new Austrian Chancellor Christian Kern.
"We have concluded a deal with the prime minister, he got the maximum he could receive, we gave the maximum we could give.
"So there will be no kind of renegotiation, nor on the agreement we found in February, nor as far as any kind of treaty negotiations are concerned'

[glassgarden]

so if you think we can remain and then negotiate
no dice
aint gonna happen

[wasonthelist]

Well of course he'd say that.

So we should expect him to be lying?

[LeaveTheRoundAbout]

I'd like to ask someone on remain that believes to seek to control EU freedom of movement is racist etc.

Would you be in favour of freedom of movement from outside EU. If not, why not? I dont' see the difference. Remain say numbers aren't the issue and we can build infrastructure to cope. If we extend free movement world wide - just have the right refuse entry to someone with significant security issues etc.

Genuinely don't get the remain's side view that having no idea on numbers isn't an issue.

Clearly we are in a trade agreement and EU citizens now have right of free movement - but remain claim it is racist to wish to end freedom of movement not that it's racist to object to the terms of a treaty etc.

[GoudyStout]

Mummymeister

Money that goes in is being misspent. We as net contributors to the EU have a right to be convinced that the money we give is not being wasted. and it is.

Nope. Not true either.

"Fraud is different from errors, in that it is an intentional deception and criminal action. Fraud only amounts to around 0.2% of all spending and the Commission has a very hard-line zero-tolerance to fraud policy. "

"There is a robust, multi-layered system of controls and audits in place to avoid irregularities in EU spending. Nonetheless, errors do happen when large sums are distributed to millions of recipients in different countries around the globe. The Commission takes a very strong stance on the principle that when an error is found, the money must be recovered. In 2013, for example, the Commission recovered or corrected €3.4 billion of incorrectly paid amounts. In total, financial corrections and recoveries for 2009-13 correspond to 2.2% of the average volume of payments in that period."

You might like to compare it to the UK, for instance, for benefits and tax credits:

DWP expects fraud and error to still be £5.8 billion in 2020–21 Link.

[glassgarden]

treating the UK like a naughty child who needs to learn who's boss, that's what I call a crap negotiation technique

[colouringinagain]

YADNBU

I believe the 99% off economic experts who say leaving would be at best bad for the economy, at worst disasterous. Nearly 50% of our exports go to Europe. And negotiating new trade agreements is Not a quick process.

Many multinational companies are based in London to gain access to EU. If we leave, so will they.

Young, working EU immigrants Add to our economy and this helps support our ageing population, plus full vital nurse and carer roles.

All leading security experts inc hear of MI5 and MI6 say were safer in.

Challenging issues such as immigration and terrorism are global issues and we need to work as part of Europe. Collaboratively.

Remain

[mummymeister]

So, because the amount of fraud in the UK is apparently bigger than that in Europe that is an argument to remain? Go and have a look at some of the projects your money has been spent on and then tell me you still think its value for money?

Have a good long read through the auditors reports - perhaps you work for a political party so have already done this Goudystout?

the referendum is too close to call and as I said way up thread even as someone voting out, I really wish this referendum hadn't been called because if we do vote in Juncker and his crew will take all of our opt outs away and certainly not honour the unwritten promises Cameron got.

my last comment on this thread though is that I do hope everyone turns out and votes, even the unsure ones because it is your one and only opportunity in your lifetime to have your say on this.

[chilipepper20]

Would you be in favour of freedom of movement from outside EU. If not, why not? I dont' see the difference.

Because most of the world is much much poorer than us. Most of the EU is not.

[GoudyStout]

mummymeister no, I don't work for a political party, but I do run a business and understand how the auditing of accounts works. I can understand the difference between material and non material errors and fraud.

You are wrong in saying that the EU accounts have failed audits - they have been passed as reflecting a true and fair view of the accounts and they conform to accounting requirements.

And I've already voted, but thanks for asking.

[LeaveTheRoundAbout]

Lots in EU are significantly poorer Romania and Poland for sure make it worthwhile coming here. We have new countries set to join - Albania , Montenegro etc

So the argument that it wouldn't work as rest of world is poorer than EU doesn't work.

I thought it was supposed to be racist in remain camp for us to say can't come here. Is i

It is a numbers issue to say that too many frown outside EU would come here.

[chilipepper20]

So the argument that it wouldn't work as rest of world is poorer than EU doesn't work.

I didn't say a lot of the EU is not poorer. Of course it is. much of the EU is poorer. in fact, probably most of the EU is poorer.

But most of the world is much much poorer, and the rest of the world is much much bigger. So, within the EU the poor aren't as poor and they aren't nearly that big in number. That biggest difference is probably Germany and Romania, not like Britain and Africa.

[LeaveTheRoundAbout]

Ok thanks for responding - have been genuinely confused as to hoe so many went down the route that to plan numbers is racist.

Good night,

[mummymeister]

I own and run a business too Goudy. Comparing the percentages in relation to "errors" isn't the whole picture though is it because its the sums of money involved which you haven't quoted.

Glad you have already voted. I wonder how many people are intending to stay up/get up early to see the results?

I am voting to leave but even I think the interjection by Juncker yesterday was absolutely stupid