To be worried that the Brexiteers might be wrong and an economic disaster is waiting if we leave?

[Girlwithnotattoos]

What if we wake up on Friday out of the EU, probably nothing immediately other than some soul searching by the remainders. But what about in the months to come? What if all the economists and world leaders were right? We could be heading down the swanny big time, companies moving to the EU proper, jobs going left right and centre, deficit increasing because of lost revenues (taxes, vat etc).

I've listened to the fervent Brexiteers who have dismissed everything put to them as propaganda and yet they still haven't come up with a plan to counter the 'what if' scenarios. Am I the only one to be worried that nobody has a plan B if the economy does slow down to tune of 1.4%to 6% as predicted bearing in mind that a reduction of just 0.4% would counteract any saving to be made on what we contribute to the EU?

[IamSlavetotheEU]

Immigration is a global issue and should be worked out globally

True. but sadly the world is a chaotic place and we cant agree on simple things even with the EU can we.

Merkel hoped the rest of the EU would share the migrant burden but instead of helping out, some of those countries put up barbed wire fences didnt they, leaving Greece and Germany to bear the brunt.

Its great to have ideals of how things should be, but we are all at different levels arnt we. and we cant drag progressive countries back.

[IamSlavetotheEU]

I dont see how it can be dont at all when we have a free flow of immigration from Europe.

HOw can we ever catch up from the biggest wave of migration we have ever had?

[gonetoseeamanaboutadog]

Iamslave We don't chase people using amenities because that would cost more money.

Look, Gove wanted to privatise the health service and Boris wants to charge people for using it. Do you really think they can be trusted to guide us towards a future that is somehow better for our services?

[gonetoseeamanaboutadog]

Iamslave

Immigration from Europe really isn't the problem. Unskilled immigrants are less likely to be from Europe than elsewhere.

[MsGus]

I come from a developing country once ruled by the UK. We fought hard for our independence as it is priceless. Yes, it came at a cost but although we are no where near the size, strength, and capability of the UK, we survive and are doing well with the limited resources we have. No way would we trade our freedom for a basket of gold.

I find it incredible, maybe amusing that the UK, after colonising much of the world has stealthily been colonialised. Oh how the world turns.

I am voting leave purely because I know what freedom means and I cannot but try to help the people of the UK reclaim their own. I would be a hypocrite to do otherwise. Believe me, freedom and self-determination is priceless.

On the economic experts, they have been wrong over and over again. They did not see the financial crash coming. If you took you car to a mechanic or send your child to a school, or visit a doctor or dentist and they keep getting it wrong or keep providing a substandard service, would you keeping going back to these same experts?

[Dapplegrey2]

"I just can't picture Gove or Johnson as socialists."
That is true, Ghost, but surely whether UK leaves or remains there will still be general elections and no party stays in power indefinitely.
As a matter of interest, I wonder which party holds the record for the longest uninterrupted time in power.

[gonetoseeamanaboutadog]

Whenever I need a chuckle I just think of Farage and Geldof shouting at each other on the Thames. That was properly hilarious and one golden moment that should definitely Remain.

[gonetoseeamanaboutadog]

msgus The terms you would have had laboured under as a colonised developing country bears little or no relation to Britain's association with the EU. Freedom is a complicated word and has very little to do with being all on your own.

[GhostofFrankGrimes]

As a matter of interest, I wonder which party holds the record for the longest uninterrupted time in power.

We have had 30 years of neo liberal governments acting against the interests of the working classes. A brexit will hand yet more power to that type of government. Brexit will not liberate ordinary people.

[MsGus]

Gonetosee, it is not different. It all boils down to self-determination. In fact, Britain was for most part supporting our economies and we had free travel to the UK. We were British citizens. Our public services, etc were propped up by the UK.

So we had more economic reasons to stay than leave but we wanted self rule. It is as simple as that.

Don't confuse slavery with colonialisation, by the way.

[Gingeete]

My dad is firm brexit based on his argument that the EU is not a democracy. We don't vote in the people who make policy or decisions. My dad is an educated a well read man. I'm sure his argument has truth. However I feel that as a nation we would be isolating ourselves form a huge market, we would loose the back up of other EU countries and I worry about human rights and liberal democratic rights which the large majority of EU countries live by being down to purely our government. I worry about the
Amount of nurses who would exit the NHS as they would be required to get visas etc. The NHS would collapse. Working hours directives and that kind of thing have been positive from the EU. I guess I'm voting stay. I don't feel knowledgable enough for this vote.

[GoudyStout]

Mummymeister

I am unwilling to stay in a massive money swallowing organisation that cannot pass an audit. It never has in 40+ years and it never will. and nothing is going to change to make this so.

Sorry, but that's not true. The EU has passed its audits from 2007 to 2013 (last year of audit). Statement from the European Commission dated 05/11/14:

"With regard to the EU's account keeping, this is the seventh year in a row that the Commission has been given a clean bill of health by the Court of Auditors. In other words, the day-to-day accounting practices of the Commission have proven themselves solid and reliable throughout the entire 2007-2013 period."

Link makes interesting reading.

[gonetoseeamanaboutadog]

mcgus Fair enough but to have autonomy but still be bound by the terms of a powerful body - it is a theoretical kind of freedom to say the least.

[gonetoseeamanaboutadog]

That is very interesting goudy. The lack of audits is the cornerstone of mummy's argument.

[HappydaysArehere]

Surely our economy is reasonably sound because we are in the EU. If our economy shrinks and we are isolated as well as being surrounded by countries holding a grudge then we know who to blame. Do you really trust Johnson. What did he achieve for London? I can only think of vanity projects and outraged taxi drivers, bike accidents, that bridge with all its potential for a financial burden on Londoners. Then don't forget his inability to attend to detail which is well documented as well as his ability to turn from pro Europe to anti as if on a sixpence. As for Gove our wonderfully popular Education Minister........

[IamSlavetotheEU]

amslave We don't chase people using amenities because that would cost more money

what a load of cobblers I am sorry you have lost all credibility, Most of the other EU countries manage perfectly well to chase US for their health service bills.
the most ridiculous comment I have heard.

[MsGus]

The EU is not a powerful body. It is weakening and losing economic might against the rest of the world. Only a handful of the countries within the Union are net contributors. The majority are not doing well and are a burden in the resources of a handful.

The UK would be leaving the Union and not Europe. It would still be trading closely with its European neighbours. As the 5th largest economy in the world, the UK has enough economic might not to be bound by anything that is to its detriment. If the EU were to put up restrictions on the UK, they would suffer more than we would. We import from them more than we export to them. It would be economic suicide if they were to build walls.

Moreover, the idea that the UK would be punished for exercising its democratic right proves the point about the Union. It is is undemocratic, autocratic, and imperialistic.

There is a big rapidly growing world outside of the the EU and we are not allowed to form our own trade deals with them. Instead, the EU does it for us but not based on our own interest but the interest of 28 countries. Therefore our specific needs are unlikely to be met and whereas it normally takes 2 years to effect a bilateral trade agreement, with the EU they take up to 7 years because it is cumbersome.

[LeaveTheRoundAbout]

Grimes: they are the voice against Goldman Sachs and big corporates and talking about the ever growing disparity between those at the top and those at the bottom.
Haven't you noticed that gap widening ever more?

Is anyone else talking about it?

May be you could suspend your prejudices and listen to who is speaking for the lowest paid? It is not the Labour party. Well except Gisela, Frank, John and Kate.

[OhtoblazeswithElvira]

OK Vote Leave HQ people some of you are showing the strain. I know it's annoying to you that you haven't managed to swamp and take over this thread like you have done with most of the EU referendum board. But are your efforts really going to make a difference at this stage? Frankly I can't see any undecided voters avidly reading this thread looking for Answers...

Remember it will all be over tomorrow either way so maybe it's time to wind down or go back to Leave HQ to help Nigel write those winning/losing speeches

[mummymeister]

"For 2013, the estimated level of error in these transactions was again too high at 4.7% for the ECA to give a clean opinion on the regularity of expenditure.”

But – and it really is a big but – the ECA made the point that the blame mostly rests with member states who made incorrect claims for EU funding in the first place"

"The EU's Court of Auditors registered an 'adverse opinion' about the legality and regularity of EU payments, being "materially affected by error" - with almost €7 billion being paid out improperly. "

This link takes you to the European commissions own press releases
europa.eu/rapid/press-release_ECA-13-36_en.htm

If you have insomnia trying reading through a few of them.

Money that goes in is being misspent. We as net contributors to the EU have a right to be convinced that the money we give is not being wasted. and it is.

[mummymeister]

"ohtoblazes" I am not part of UKIP or any other political party and I never have been.

this has been a very interesting and well debated thread. is it your first post on it?

[GhostofFrankGrimes]

Grimes: they are the voice against Goldman Sachs and big corporates and talking about the ever growing disparity between those at the top and those at the bottom.
Haven't you noticed that gap widening ever more?

Is anyone else talking about it?

May be you could suspend your prejudices and listen to who is speaking for the lowest paid? It is not the Labour party. Well except Gisela, Frank, John and Kate.

30 years of UK government policy has made life worse for ordinary British people not the EU. The council house sell off, free market principles, housing act of 1988, council tax, BTL landlords, zero hour contracts, sell off of public assets. Boris Johnson, IDS, Gove and Farage will not help ordinary people. The gap between rich and poor exists because of the inequalities of capitalism - an economic system championed by UK governments.

I am working class myself - if I thought Brexit would bring about a socialist utopia some seem to predict I would vote leave. But it won't. Goldman Sachs are going nowhere. The Daily Mail and The Sun will still encourage ordinary folk to vote for capitalist parties.

[OhtoblazeswithElvira]

Yes mummy I agree that this is an interesting and well debated thread, probably one of the few on MN on this topic.

I have followed it from the very first posts and honestly I can't remember if I've posted on it before or not (severe lack of sleep). Hope that is OK? Do you need to see my driving licence or something?

[magicboy79]

I don't think it has to result in economic disaster but I think it would due to he fear and speculation of the possibility of a recession.
I really want to vote leave but this is the one thing that's holding me back, scared of what will happen to the economy. My husband works for bmw who are very much pro Europe, he's on a good salary with great bonus scheme for the dealerships performance, if we leave I don't want to be out money!

[magicboy79]

Also, really no need to worry, sure Boris has said officially he will say sorry if he is wrong lol