To Think expats shouldn't be able to vote in the EU referendum?

[Snowflakes1122]

Am I right? Those expats living abroad less than 15 years have a right to vote in the EU referendum?!

They decide to get out, then want to decide fate of those who stay behind and actually live here? AIBU to think they should duck off as it doesn't have anything to do with them since they left?

I'm surprised anyone has such a uniform social circle that every expat they know is voting the same way. Most expats I know are voting remain, as am I. But I do know a few who aren't. Mostly very left-wing people living outside the EU. I understand some of their reasons, but they haven't persuaded me that any real good will come of Brexit and I think they're mistaken about the impact it will have on issues they care about.

I'm in Canada and am voting remain. My British passport still works so I have a vested interest. A lot of people who are out of the UK really do have more skin in the game because my right to move around and work may be affected and I clearly move around more.

I don't vote in general elections in the UK since getting Canadian citizenship because I don't think that's fair.

YABU. Expats are not only voting for themselves but for family still in the UK; and they, too, might return some day.

Mostly very left-wing people living outside the EU I am to the right and living about 25 minutes away from Schuman and Berlaymont.

I'm outside of the EU and voted to leave. Plenty of us are voting to leave. The EU isn't as strong as people think it is. It's also not democratic.

Those living abroad are migrants actually.

janecc yes I suppose you could say I was chiding the pp. I know I wasn't prepared to give up my native citizenship in order to vote, but equally I didn't expect to get a say in constitutional change of my adopted country. And they've had 2 referendums since I got here.

But I do get how difficult it is to make that choice and yes it is like choosing between mum and dad. It really does suck not being able to get dual citizenship.

The Leavers I know tend to be hard left, so my because I know a lot more left wing people than right wing. The vast majority of Leavers are right wing, so I imagine that will be the case amongst expats too. The Labour party has previously not supported changing the 15 year rule because they believe that most expats are right wing. If that's true I would expat many expats outside the EU to vote Leave. People who will be directly affected by leaving, those inside the EU, will probably be more likely to vote remain regardless of general political affiliation but of course that won't be universal.

FoggyBottom what is the point in jumping on the thread to write just "Those living abroad are migrants actually."? Ex pats are one type of migrant - ex pat is one of multiple specific categories within the much larger category "migrant".

An ex pat is a type of migrant, of course. There is about as much point in posting "Those living abroad are migrants actually" on this thread as there is in jumping onto a thread about dogs and writing only "Dogs are mammals actually."

wanttobesupermum don't you feel it's a bit unfair that you can vote out for ideological reasons (it's not very democratic) then stay outside the EU and therefore not have to suffer any of the consequences of that vote until you choose to come back to the country if/when it has recovered sufficiently to be comfortable again?

Are we talking about actual expats or British immigrants?

As expats are employed by British companies, and are 'only' there because of that, of course they should get a vote.

I'm not sure about British immigrants or migrants.

I'm in two minds on this one. I left the uk 7 years ago and would be entitled to vote if I had chosen to do so. My sons are too young now but still have British passports and may want to move back when they are older.

On the other hand we are permanent migrants (to NZ, so EU issues affect us very little!) and have no intention of returning to the UK to live. On that basis I did not register to vote, I didn't think it was fair.

I am now wondering if I should have done!

Is hard to find a set, agreed and absolute definition of an ex-pat, so it isn't necessarily true that all British ex-pats are working for British companies (any more than it is true that everyone born and still living in the UK works for a British company). If you get a job with an American company in 2010, and in 2015 they ask you to do a 5 year stint in Milan, you are certainly an ex pat while in Italy... Most ex-pats have probably moved with an international company though - I wonder if having a local contract makes you not an ex pat...

There is an interesting article here which suggests it is about freedom of movement - ex pats move freely between countries and own high status passports which allow them that privilege, migrants require a lot of paperwork to move between countries.

Extrapolated from that is the unpleasant snob value attached to being an ex pat (with a high status passport) and corresponding negative associations some people have with the word migrant/ immigrant, and I can see why that can be off putting and make some people want to do away with the term ex pat altogether, but IMO the difference between being an ex-pat and emigrating hangs even more upon the definite plan to return to your country of origin rather than a firm intention to settle permanently in the new county... that distinction tends to have knock on effect in terms of whether property is retained in the UK and belongings left in storage, whether children go to international or UK boarding or local state schools, and who trailing spouses and children mainly socialise and make friends with, what extent the local language (if not English) is learnt, exactly where in the host country the family set up home, how often they return to their country of origin to visit etc. etc.

IMO an ex pat remains largely rooted in the country of origin, where an emigrant throws themselves fully into putting down roots in the new country because they plan to make it their permanent home - even if plans (for either group) end up changing due to unforeseen events later.

Migrant is a blanket term which covers dozens of scenarios, from asylum seekers and refugees and other "forced migrants" to those moving fully of their own volition due to pull factors rather than push factors - emigrants seeking a better life style on a permanent basis, emigrants moving because they have met and married somebody from another country, and ex pats people working overseas for a fairly short portion of their life (after all 15 years is still not the majority of an average 80 year lifespan).

I don't think of myself as an ex pat because I married somebody from another country and live in his home country with no particular plan to return to the UK (but I wouldn't want to give up the option to return any more than most people, regardless of country of origin, want to actually exile themselves) , but I do think that ex pats are totally different to UK emigrants/ host country immigrants because they firmly view their country of origin as their permanent home, and themselves as living away from home rather than having adopted a new home country.

I'm in Japan and am voting Leave.

Schwab. Having a local contract means in company terms that you are no longer an expat.

DH is French, employed in uk. We went to various countries in Europe whilst abroad with him as an expat. He also worked in France as an expat. However in legal employment terms, he was under the laws of the host country, not the country from where the employment originated as is the case for all expats - contrary to what he believed before embarking on his stint abroad.

Of course short term expats should be able to vote. Given that they've been around their views are as valuable as the rest of us, plus many - most? - of them will be coming back.

That said I find the arrogance of people like this (BBC link) distinctly unpalatable. I've always thought that if you move somewhere else you should attempt to integrate, and those who've been abroad long-term living the high life and have no real intent to return should be looking for local citizenship. 15 years is probably a good cut-off.

Janecc maybe whether you are an ex pat or not is down to what kind of employment contract you have then - that does make sense although still leaves grey areas (if trailing spouse takes up employment with a local contract in the host country is the trailing spouse not an ex pat but the spouse with a British contract is? Where do kids of the family stand?)

I do think it could be boarderline unethical for British people living outside the EU with no plans to return to the EU to vote... but when all is said and done anyone who holds a UK passport will be somewhat affected because their freedom of movement and potential future right to reside in other EU countries would be compromised if the UK left the EU...

Arguably UK citizens living in the EU (regardless of how long for) are more affected than any other group except citizens of other EU counties who have made their home in the UK...

GIven nobody has any actual concrete knowledge of what will happen within the UK if the EU leaves and most people are voting with their hearts perhaps everyone with any stake at all should be allowed to vote - or nobody should and somebody impartial should just toss a coin... I have watched some of the debates on UK TV and they are all speculation and emotive rhetoric and hot air, even less substance than your average campaigning - and the plethora of debates with "real people" are just as bad.

Bungo Why is the opinion of these two British citizens living in the EU less valid than someone living in the UK? They pay UK tax, have UK family and have links to the UK. They were given the right to free movement by the UK government when the UK signed the corresponding EU treaty agreement and should have the right to vote on whether that should be taken away. People like them, and me, will be directly affected by a Brexit.

I'm an expat / economic immigrant / enjoyer of the right to freedom of movement in the EU. As Zorion said, I haven't abandoned my country or "got out" either- I'm just enjoying my right to live where I can in Europe without visa restrictions. Despite being in another EU country for 15 and a half years and being completely integrated in the local community (and not living the "high life" at all, btw - I'm living a normal life in Central Europe rather than Central London or the like...) / having no intention to return to the UK to live long-term, I have never had any intention to take on local citizenship. I am not German and never will be.

Bungo some ex pats can be arrogant arses but there is no reason to call the ones in your link arrogant at all, nor to believe they are "living the high life". Most UK ex pats in the EU are not living "the high life" to any greater degree than they would have been in the UK - the difference in the cost of living between the UK and many EU countries is no longer significant, and of course some places are more expensive.

Of course expats get a say. It affects us more than most.

Voting to leave won't change squat about immigration- the most likely model we will end up with is one like Norway. Who have freedom of movement.

The high life? Hmm... Most of us just live pretty normal Lives. We certainly aren't swimming in cash. Besides, the cost of living in many European countries is akin to or higher than the uk. I live in Sweden and it's an expensive country.

There's a small proportion of expats living with serious gold plated contracts - everything paid for, kids in private schools, hated communities etc. That's what you have to pay to attract people to certain places - no one in their right mind would go and live in Saudi for funsies.

Bungo, you find 94 year-old veteran Harry Shindler, who fought in world war two, pays UK taxes on his UK based pension and maintains an interest in the UK, including membership of a British political party, arrogant and unpalatable? Ok.

Bungo I find the arrogance regarding an elderly WWII veteran unpalatable. I came back from my time abroad as an expat with rather less myopic views than some of my fellow compatriots.

Yabu. Many will have contributed to the British economy and its society for years before leaving and will therefore be in receipt of certain entitlements such as pension. Presumably many will also find it easier to travel back and forth. And finally they'll have family and friends still in the UK and care for their future.

On that logic you should be very angry that EU nationals currently resident in the UK do not have a vote.