to post a reminder that there are loads of left-leaning reasons to vote "out"?

[AnotherEffingOrangeRevel]

I think it's very sad that the "out" camp has been largely commandeered by racism and xenophobia. This can leave a very bad taste in the mouth for the liberal left, and I think is making people go to "remain" by default. After all, who wants to vote with Nigel Farage?

But this is actually very strange. The EU is undemocratic and benefits the tax-dodging super-rich. It is developed to suit the needs of enormous corporations and banks. To vote "out" would be a very logical move for people with left-leaning politics.

IMHO we need to be very careful not to vote "in" simply because the other option has been taken over by right-wing shouty men obsessed with immigration.

I've posted a couple of links to reasonable arguments below (but there's loads of stuff out there if you look for it).

www.dissentmagazine.org/online_articles/left-case-brexit

www.independent.co.uk/voices/labour-mp-kate-hoey-why-leaving-the-eu-is-a-left-wing-move-a6687936.html

It would be hilarious if people weren't voting so clearly against theirvown interests.

UK governmemt prove their influence in the EU by blocking all attempts by member states to crack down on tax avoidance.

UK government tell the usual big porky pies about how their hands are tied when it comes to tax avoidance due to laws imposed upon them by "Brussels bureaucrats".

There was actually someone on here recently claiming they'd never voted for a member of the EU council of ministers

Terrible Brussels bureaucrats them lot

Voting to leave the EU will visit as much pain on the most vulnerable in our society as welfare "reform".

There is no way around that.

At least be honest that yiu think their pain is worth your imagined goal.

Exactly how has the EU been helping out Sports Direct workers, the Steel workers and the Fishermen?

Oh, yes, not at all.

How has the EU been protecting the rights of the striking French Workers?, oh yes, not at all.

Claiming that the EU gave us wonderful rights and protections isn't going to cut much ice - what the EU has delivered for workers is minimal - and it doesn't prevent exploitation.

The EU doesn't protect us from big business, it favours big business.

Voting to leave the EU will visit as much pain on the most vulnerable in our society as welfare "reform".
Bollocks, absolute bollocks - neither you nor anyone else can possibly know this so you can stick your fear and guilt trip agenda, and your "useful idiot" jibes and all your other nasty patronising rhetoric where the sun doesn't shine.

what the EU has delivered for workers is minimal

If you can type that you are either a liar or an idiot.

Yes, the EU increasingly does favour big business.

But there is a legal framework that provides various means of resistance.

The Tories plan is to jettison every bit of that framework.

That is their actual stated aim, and they are the party of government.

So your plan is to vote for them to take away all the rights.

And then what?

neither you nor anyone else can possibly know this

Well lots of people who clearly know a great deal more than you about what is both possible and likely can make educated guesses.

And those guesses all estimate several years of recession under a Tory government.

You can vote for that if that's what you want.

But that is not a leftwing vote.

^
Claiming that the EU gave us wonderful rights and protections isn't going to cut much ice - what the EU has delivered for workers is minimal - and it doesn't prevent exploitation.^
Yes, EU rights and protections are minimal because they are a floor upon which individual countries are free to expand on. No it doesn't prevent exploitation because exploitation is illegal and exists despite the law.

The EU doesn't protect us from big business, it favours big business.

So has every single UK government since 1979.

I'm a leftie and I'll be voting to stay. Its got nothing to do with any fear of being labelled racist.
I believe it will be better for us long term if the Eastern European countries are in the EU and not under the influence of Russia or the Middle East.

I dont believe that a vote for Leave means you will get any more control on immigration than you have now.
The Calais camp is in Calais and not the UK. How is that not control over immigration?

Re the freedom of movement of workers, I think what a lot of people don't realise (and I can't believe more of a point isn't being made of this) is that countries who aren't fully members of the eu, and who look to sign up to a trade deal with the eu (as Britain would need to if we exit) often find they need to agree to the free movement of workers and after to abide by eu laws in order to get the trade. Lots of people are saying "look at Switzerland, look at Norway. They're not members and their economy is good" but that's because they have trade deals with the eu and have had to agree to allow free movement as part of that deal (can't find the up to date figures, but Switzerland had more eu immigrants than us in 2014). So if we exit, we would lose the benefits of being a fully integrated member of the eu but probably have to still abide by the laws of the eu (which we would then have no influence over) and still allow free movement in order to get some of that trade back. It's bonkers.

Sorry for not having read the whole thread yet, I just wanted to say how much I agree with your opinion, OP. I am only watching on from afar, assiduously listening to Radio Four and I've only once heard left-wing Brexit voices and then they were asked to defend Farage's xenophobic ideas.

As I say, I don't have a vote, so haven't thought seriously how I would vote if I had, but things like the fact that you cannot sell fruit or vegetables that are outside a restricted list of commercial varieties really get my goat. The EU is faceless and totally undemocratic, but obviously the media will spin a Brexit vote as being a vote against immigration and in favour of fools like Farage and Johnson.

Switzerland and Norway have far higher levels of EU immigration than the UK as a proportion of their populations.
notice the important phrase as a proportion - and in a recent referendum they are trying to change the current rules with the EU

The most left wing guy I know is voting leave. He's also probably the least xenophobic guy I know.

I'm probably going to vote stay but I do see both sides of the argument.

YANBU

notice the important phrase as a proportion - and in a recent referendum they are trying to change the current rules with the EU

What, Switzerland? Yes, after the vote the Bundesrat took swift and decisive action to kick the can further down the road. EU opinion on the vote, and indeed the terms of the bilateral treaties between CH and EU, suggest that they won't get rid of free movement without losing significant access to the European single market.

The Working Time Directive etc is not going to be dismantled on Brexit. Politicians will not be reverting us back to 1973. Where we are now is a starting point for the future.

Surely how Britain builds on what we already have should be in the hands of you and I. Brexit means that your MP will be accountable for 100% of the laws made. If you don't like it you can vote them out. Currently it's only about 50%. Greater democracy.

I think Corbyn supports remain because:
A) he was pressured by own MPs into it
B) he's a comfort champagne socialist; all those yrs of rebelling against the Labour party but he never left it. All those yrs of moaning about EU (so easy to moan...) but no intention to leave. Moaning & criticisms is easy but deep passion at root of it, not so much.
C) he isn't passsionate. Not passionate about institutions or groups. Cameron or Gove care deeply about Tory party & have own ambitions. Corbyn doesn't love his party, and only cares a little about own ambitions, certainly doesn't love being leader -- ambivalent if anything. He'll be relieved to go back to being a rabble rowser on back benches
D) Corbyn is tired... and Real Politique is settling in

The Working Time Directive etc is not going to be dismantled on Brexit. Politicians will not be reverting us back to 1973. Where we are now is a starting point for the future.

What a strange assertion, with nothing to back it up.

Can you explain why you imagine the Brexiteers in power are lying about their intentions post-Brexit?

Tye reason for this referendum is Tory dissatisfaction with the social chapter.

That's what we are trying to opt out of.

Why would you bother leaving if you were going to keep all the "undemocratic" laws that were "imposed on you"?

UK governments did everything in their power to prevent and delay implementation of the working time directive. Why would they keep it?

Brexit means that your MP will be accountable for 100% of the laws made. If you don't like it you can vote them out. Currently it's only about 50%. Greater democracy.

WTF?

This is so inaccurate it makes no sense at all.

Do you understand anythibg st all about how EU legislation comes about and who has to agree to it?

As for being able to "vote out" MPs who bring in legislation you don't support?

LOL

That means only voters in swing seats have any deocracy at all.

Which is more true than the bullshit about half of legislation.

There is a democratic deficit in the EU, but this does not remotely describe it.

The very first thing Boris would do on a Brexit (and it's increasingly looking like will, not would) will pass a law disapplying the Working Time Directive in the UK/what's left of it.

We have a bit of an opt out on it anyway but it's one of the pieces of EU legislation that some Tory MPs hate the most and would be first to go.

Threads like this upset me. You sound so optimistic about a future you can't have. What you will have is massive uncertainty and four years more of a Tory govt run by the extreme right wing nutjob end of the party. Sure there is a lot wrong with the EU but if Murdoch wants out then I'm in.

name
The very first thing Boris would do on a Brexit (and it's increasingly looking like will, not would) will pass a law disapplying the Working Time Directive in the UK/what's left of it.
and you KNOW this
and you do realise that things will not suddenly change on June 24th 2016 - we will (if leave win) handed in our notice to the EU - there will then follow months |(nay years) of negotiation during which we will remain in the EU and subject to all its directives.
someone else - Theresa May for example my throw her hat into the ring to replace Cameron - and no - UKIP will not form a government - they have one MP

maybe that's my experience too. All the retired folk are Remain as they are worried about their pension!
The best travelled people I know, are all out.

I think because they are confident enough to understand that they aren't racist for having these concerns.

there will then follow months |(nay years) of negotiation

Yes, nothing like years of uncertainty to stabilise a fragile economy.

I love it when people pretend that nothing will change.

If that were case, why vote at all?

My view is that it will be sorted relatively quickly to be honest.

It is genuine scaremongering to stop the masses rebelling

Short term pain; huge long term gains. Fuck off EU with your bureacratic, anti democratic shite.

Your view based on what?

What will be sorted quickly?

Trade with the EU will be sorted as slowlybas everything EU-related is.

Because it is so "undemocratic", everyone's the pretty much has to agree to new terms.

There is also the tiny matter of the UK's very long and historically hard to seal border with Ireland, which will now become an EU border.

That is a massive legal conundrum because the UK and Ireland have pre-existing Intenational agreements around that border that won't square with it being an external EU border.

Fixing that won't be quick by any means.

Where do people get tbe idea that you can quickly and easily opt out of major International treaties? That took years and years to negotiate?

I can understand people who think that leaving is massively risky but worth influcting on ourselves and our vulnerable citizens for the eventual uplands they imagine (falsely IMO) to be on the other side.

I think those people are cavalier.

But people who think leaving will be no big deal and there are no risks involved are so ignorant as to be a thing of wonder.

What huge long term gains? I'm genuinely interested because I really can't see how we'll reap massive benefits by being in a much weaker position on the world forum?