to post a reminder that there are loads of left-leaning reasons to vote "out"?

[AnotherEffingOrangeRevel]

I think it's very sad that the "out" camp has been largely commandeered by racism and xenophobia. This can leave a very bad taste in the mouth for the liberal left, and I think is making people go to "remain" by default. After all, who wants to vote with Nigel Farage?

But this is actually very strange. The EU is undemocratic and benefits the tax-dodging super-rich. It is developed to suit the needs of enormous corporations and banks. To vote "out" would be a very logical move for people with left-leaning politics.

IMHO we need to be very careful not to vote "in" simply because the other option has been taken over by right-wing shouty men obsessed with immigration.

I've posted a couple of links to reasonable arguments below (but there's loads of stuff out there if you look for it).

www.dissentmagazine.org/online_articles/left-case-brexit

www.independent.co.uk/voices/labour-mp-kate-hoey-why-leaving-the-eu-is-a-left-wing-move-a6687936.html

If that's directed at me Pumpkin, I don't believe it will give workers more rights at all - hence being decidedly undecided. I do, however, believe that the laws of supply and demand apply most to the lowest paid and low skill jobs.

When companies can ignore demand for better pay and conditions because they can get cheaper workers from abroad who will live in substandard conditions to make wages worthwhile then it allows them to pay less than a British worker needs to live.

However I definitely agree that the flip side is that workers' rights in general have been promoted by the EU - they just don't usually apply to those in the lowest paid jobs.

When companies can ignore demand for better pay and conditions because they can get cheaper workers from abroad who will live in substandard conditions to make wages worthwhile then it allows them to pay less than a British worker needs to live

Where are these demands coming from?

Individual employees don't and can't make these demands. They don't have unions to represent them.....

Companies can depress pay because there is no one to stand up to them and it will get even worse if there's an exit, I guarantee it. It'll be under the guise of "we need to keep costs down as we are competitive internationally" etc etc. And there will be no institution around to keep workers' rights protected.

The Tories will use it as an excuse for pushing through more austerity. It will be a lose lose for the low paid and under represented. And thus it ever was.

Boris is the English Trump.

I guess you will still whine 'we will lose all our rights etc ' without any evidence/certainty that that will be the case

Well I'm not sure there is much to be gained from discussions with people who have already "guessed" what you are going to say, but I think it is naive in the extreme to ignore the fact that the people likely to be making decisions post-Tory Brexit have already made clear their intentions to dismantle the workers rights imposed on their class by the EU.

Do you think they are bluffing? That they will change their minds?

The rich and powerful people supporting Brexit are motivated by getting rid of those rights (that they call regulations and red tape).

I can't ber certain what will happen after a Brexit. Nobody can.

But it seems safe to presume that there will be a period of economic uncertainty that will hurt the poor and middle earners.

And that the party of government will take the opportunity it presents to do what they have always promised and destroy all of the social chapter protections.

That's the POINT of leaving. That's what the vote has ways been about.

Tories who think we woukd be better off is we could better exploit our workers and Tories that think having to have safe workplaces and maternity leave is worth it for preferential access to a big market.

YANBU. There are plenty of persuasive left wing arguments that support Brexit.

However, I'm hugely concerned about the break up of the Union, Russia's appetite to expand its borders and the inevitable recession that Brexit will initiate. That's enough for me to vote Remain.

I do, however, believe that the laws of supply and demand apply most to the lowest paid and low skill jobs.

Me too.

And I have a pain in my arse listening to people calling people who point that out racist.

I don't believe for a second the Tories will reduce non-EU immigration, bother to crack down on illegal immigration, or start to enforce national minimum wage legislation, Brexit or no Brexit.

Have thought long and hard about which way to vote and have come to the opinion that I have no option other than to vote remain. Corbyn said on a scale to 1 - 10 he is about 7.5. Lots wrong with EU, but unfortunately the alternative is much worse.

Personally think this vote shouldnt be happening, it was only done to keep the right wing of conservatives happy. Extremely unhappy to find myself having to vote remain and being considered to be on the same side as DC.

I'm left leaning. I'm taking a long term view. It has to be Leave.

I can't imagine the state of the EU in 30 years time and this is our only chance to get out. Boris is a twat but he is s short term issue.

I can't imagine the state of the EU in 30 years time and this is our only chance to get out.

It's also our chance not to get out and make sure that in 30 years the EU on our doorstep is as good as it can be.

There has been a lot of lying by British governments of both stripes about how they were forced to do things by "Brussels" that they either supported or actually proposed.

If the EU is a shit show in 30 years, it is still going to be where it is now.

ie very, very close to us

Stock markets in other countries wanting an EU exit are crashing too. The whole thing will collapse of we leave. We are doing everyone a long term favour of we leave.

The whole thing will collapse of we leave. We are doing everyone a long term favour of we leave.

I doubt it will "collapse" after Tory Brexit at all.

Even countries sympathetic towards leaving will watch from their position of safety before maki g their own move into the unknown.

Setiously weird to want to "collapse" an institution that has promoted stability across a continent for half a century.

Even weirder to think that such a collapse would be a favour to anyone.

Some people really don't care who gets hurt in their quest for ideological purity.

There are strong and principled left-wing opinions that point towards Brexit. I'm sure Gove or Boris will be grateful that you hold them when they fuck up the country beyond our understanding.

Right OP, I looked up that Dissent magazine link and there are a lot of just bald assertions but here's some of the meat:

The EU is relevant here because modern Scottish nationalism is essentially the working-out within Britain of the logic of the EU. Scotland joined the Union in 1707 to enjoy an economic union with a large market and a global trading power. But with the advent of the EU, which guarantees Scotland virtually the same freedoms of trade and movement as the 1707 Union did, Scotland no longer needs to be united with England.
So basically, we should Brexit because that will isolate Scotland to the point where they will be grateful to be in the EU. Great.

The same structures that the eighth president of the European Commission, Jacques Delors, promised to use in the interests of the working class turned out by the time of the 2007–08 financial crash to have been used instead to push through a variety of neoliberal economic and social policies that have only damaged the European working class.

What ones? The ones on parental leave, maximum working time, on protection of occupational pensions, the ones guaranteeing recognition of professional qualifications throughout the EU, the ones on minimum health and safety standards? No, I know, free movement. It's always about free movement.

the creation of the National Health Service, would have been impossible in a country with strong constitutional constraints on the legislature, since it required the large-scale expropriation of private property in the shape of the old endowed hospitals. That is a major reason why so few countries have adopted the NHS model: in most of them it would have been illegal, just as similar proposals would be illegal in the EU today.

I'll take a wild guess that such proposals would also have been illegal in the UK immediately before the EU came into being, and were in fact only possible in that post war period when you were dealing with a country that had had no option but collectivism - rationing and conscription being a damn sight more significant in terms of loss of personal freedom than the requisitioning of a few hospitals. But in any case, this is really on the very far edge of the left wing, is it not? Objecting to EU membership because it gets in the way of being able to requisition private property? I think that is too left wing for my blood.

Christ, obv that should read "So basically, we should Brexit because that will isolate Scotland to the point where they will be grateful to be in the union."

Shit, don't tell me I killed the threas by actually reading an article referenced in the OP...

YANBU

Plenty of reasons to vote out for Labour supporters like me!

(Who knows what Corbyn will vote in the privacy of the polling booth)

Why do you think Corbyn sold out? I mean, what would be his motive or reasons not to say what he really wants?

Tom Watson today frantically trying to promise that Labour now acknowledges the problem with uncontrolled immigration (about ten years too late), and saying vote Remain to reform the EU from within. Laughable. We've not managed any reform in the 40+ years we've been members.

Why do you think Corbyn sold out? I mean, what would be his motive or reasons not to say what he really wants?

He wants to keep his job.

Doesn't make sense.. Corbyn was elected by ordinary members & clearly ordinary members are very divided about L or R. The Parliamentary MPs dare not try to get rid of Corbyn when he hasn't been in post long, hasn't done any huge screwup, & was elected with such a huge mandate.

The L/R campaign was barely a cloud on the horizon when the members voted for Corbyn. Certainly those members don't want another leadership contest so soon, because they have high hopes for Corbyn next time around.

It genuinely baffles me why Labour didn't grab the chance to support Leave. If they had, they'd be anticipating a huge victory next week, the Tories tearing themselves apart and Corbyn being in No. 10 shortly afterwards.

There are strong and principled left-wing opinions that point towards Brexit. I'm sure Gove or Boris will be grateful that you hold them when they fuck up the country beyond our understanding.

As mentioned above - that's too short-termist and assumes that Boris and Gove will sweep into power if we vote leave - very very big assumptions based on not much really.

As I said upthread - based on those sorts of views, Labour would never have won in 1945 (against Churchill remember) or in 1997.

I prefer to vote out of principle rather than a twisted tactical view of what may happen. At least I can say I voted for something I really believe in.

We might wind up with Boris and Gove if everyone votes remain in any case, since Cameron's not serving beyond the next election. If the Tories think Boris could win, they'll elect him leader with no problem, and then all the people who warned us about Boris will find out just how useless the EU is at protecting workers actual rights - the EU has done zip for the Sports Direct workers, the Steelworkers, the Fishermen.

We've not managed any reform in the 40+ years we've been members.

LO fucking L

This is the limits of democracy, right here.

Someone who can type that without a hint of irony gets to fuck up the ecomony and put the wolves in charge of the henhouse and actually believe they are not being a useful idiot.

At least people who support Michael.Gove and Boris Johnson are making choices based on some kind of relationship with reality.

assumes that Boris and Gove will sweep into power if we vote leave - very very big assumptions based on not much really.

Not very big assumptions at all.

And based on the British constitution, electoral law, political reality.

aka "not much really"

There will be no general election until 2020.

That means 4 more years of the Tories.

That is long enough for a child to be born and start school.

Long enough for the NHS to completely fall apart.

Long enough for the social chapter to be completely dismantled before anybody even gets to contest another election.

Inflict that on us if you must.

But at least be honest about your wish to hurt people in pursuit of your unattainable goal.

''YANBU. Labour Leave did a good pamphlet here...''

That's not my assessment of it. It's quite poor really and really contradicts itself over anti-dumping laws. Is for them to protect UK industry, is against them because it costs UK citizens.

It's news to me that the EU is standing in the way of the UKs valiant attempts to crack down on tax cheats. I rather thought it was the other way around.

But at least be honest about your wish to hurt people in pursuit of your unattainable goal.

I have never heard anything so pathetic.