to post a reminder that there are loads of left-leaning reasons to vote "out"?

[AnotherEffingOrangeRevel]

I think it's very sad that the "out" camp has been largely commandeered by racism and xenophobia. This can leave a very bad taste in the mouth for the liberal left, and I think is making people go to "remain" by default. After all, who wants to vote with Nigel Farage?

But this is actually very strange. The EU is undemocratic and benefits the tax-dodging super-rich. It is developed to suit the needs of enormous corporations and banks. To vote "out" would be a very logical move for people with left-leaning politics.

IMHO we need to be very careful not to vote "in" simply because the other option has been taken over by right-wing shouty men obsessed with immigration.

I've posted a couple of links to reasonable arguments below (but there's loads of stuff out there if you look for it).

www.dissentmagazine.org/online_articles/left-case-brexit

www.independent.co.uk/voices/labour-mp-kate-hoey-why-leaving-the-eu-is-a-left-wing-move-a6687936.html

He has lost his mandate of we leave in the same way DC has. I say that as someone who voted for JC.

Thanks, OP - great reminder. I've been closer to 'out' than 'in' for most of the debate, agonisingly, and hate the assumption that it must be because I'm anti-immigrant - which I'm not, I consider myself an internationalist. However I'm now closer to an 'in' vote, because of what we'd be left with - Boris and his chums negotiating a terrible opt-out, and signing us up to who knows what trade deals that we'd be locked into for a very long time.

Paul Mason sums it up well for me. www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/may/16/brexit-eu-referendum-boris-johnson-greece-tory I'm very disappointed that Labour haven't challenged the terms of the debate (though I haven't heard what JC has said today yet) - I want to hear them talking honestly about what's wrong with the EU, how it's become a neo-liberal institution working in the interests of big business, and making a case about how they think it could be challenged if they want us to vote to stay in.

One thing that's missed is how very different politics in mainland Europe really is. There's none of the "you've never had a proper job" taunts that there are here, becuase it's understood some people will effectively persue politics as a career. I think this means that the EU is adminstered and operated in a way that is alien to our approach to, and understanding of politics. It's no accident that our adversarial judicial system is the breeding ground of many of politicians - and it shouldn't be ignored that most other EU countries don't have anything like our legal system, either.

Rather than thinking left or right I try to think pragmatically. The EU has turned out to bring a high standard of living to millions of its citizens and has supported looking after the planet.

Also its not as simple as this vote just being about the EU. If leave wins we will very likely end up with the very right wing side of conservative party in charge of the country.

I think there are good leftist reasons for wanti g to leave the EU.

I think any leftist voting for Brexit as a solution to internal Tory squabbles and under the current administration needs their head read.

It's like the leftists planning not to vote for Hillary Clinton and thereby help Donald Trump become president.

Non pragmatic lefties gave us George W Bush.

Working people in the UK are very likely to be worse off under a Tory Brexit than if the UK remains in the EU, particularly given recent ECJ judgements on immigration.

Brexit will be a shit show if it comes about.

I view it as releasing the other member states too. This is a revolutionary move.

When you're in sail housing and using a good bank you have nothing left to lose.

Agree with DoinItFine and eyeshow. Of course there are good left wing arguments to leave, none of them are likely to become reality in our current political climate. Pragmatically it makes sense to vote remain.

social housing

The poor working class don't give a shit about holiday, study or work visa health care issues.

They are clearly fed up of MC/UC people telling them what to do and are rebelling.

But England is generally a right wing country and it's much more likely you'll get years of neo liberal conservatives fucking up worker's rights etc. They're already having a go at the Trade Unions.

I'm almost certain Scotland will go if there's a Brexit.

... and yet, if it weren't for a tory government, there wouldn't be a referendum. if the labour leavers who voted for miliband had gotten their way last year, they wouldn't be getting the choice now.

I haven't decided either way, so have no views yet, but I do find that an interesting conundrum!

I think Labour needs to rethink. Only 37% were right leaning last year. The left vote is diluted and many are not voting.

If Scotland wants to leave the UK I don't blame them. Odd choice to leave one union then give up independence again by joining another.

Corbyn sold out.

I am disappointed in Corbyn on that single issue

This. I don't like Corbyn, but I thought he was a politician of integrity and not just towing the party line.

All very interesting.
Personally, I think the EU may increasingly be a beast far more malicious and ungovernable than any of the unsavoury politicians we're objecting to, and that voting out is a move towards a less corporate and plutocrat-driven world in the long run. Given that it's so hard (impossible) to predict the details of what would happen in the UK, I think I'll have to go with the general principle of leaving being the most morally justified move for the majority. I see the problems with Out though. It's so hard.

Agree re Corbyn. Can only think his hands were somehow tied.

celtic
Of course there are good left wing arguments to leave, none of them are likely to become reality in our current political climate. Pragmatically it makes sense to vote remain.
but don't you see - this is a once in a lifetime opportunity and you are throwing it away because you think there will be permanently a 'right- wing government' when governments come and go every 5 years and just because the Conservatives are not your party of choice you believe they will become a right wing dictatorship and all our laws, customs, rights will be blown out of the water and we will never get rid of them (the right wing government)
we could have nulabour under new leadership back in power in 2020 - but don't expect a real left wing government any time soon (their day is past)

I'm so happy to see this thread. I'm still undecided but leaning towards leave partially because of the terrible impact open borders is having on the ability of low waged workers to unionise.

I honestly believe that traditional Labour voters have been betrayed by its leaders who only see the benefits for the elites and ignore the very serious impacts that EU membership has had on the working classes for the last 20 years.

Of course there are good left wing arguments to leave, none of them are likely to become reality in our current political climate

Escaping the EU and it's undemocratic capitalism is surely an outcome in itself in the longer term.

this is a once in a lifetime opportunity

A once in a lifetime opportunity to turn your back on the organisation that has done most for workers' rights in the UK in the last 30 odd years.

That's a weird "opportunity" for someone who cares about labour to be grasping.

Successive UK governments have delayed and vetoed and opted out of so many directives that protect rights UK workers now take for granted - working time, temporary agency workers.

The idea that turning away from an EU that has fought with the UK for representation for Unions on boards of companies is going to give workers here more rights to unionise is just laughable.

There are so many leftwing allies in the EU, pissed off about the direction of travel.

Giving them the finger to be a "free trade" nation governed by English Trump is so self-defeating and pointless.

There is also the tiny matter of the new EU border that will be created in the middle of Ireland, in contravention of the Good Friday Agreement.

Agree about a sort of betrayal, OneFlew

Utterly flabbergasted that someone thinks leaving the EU will give workers more rights? All the coalition/Tory Westminster government have done is introduce curbs to workers' rights. The protection which remains is largely because it stems from the EU.

Escaping the EU and it's undemocratic capitalism is surely an outcome in itself in the longer term.

As Keynes had it, in the long term we are all dead.

Throwing the poor under a bus in a vain attempt at ideological purity is a proud leftwing tradition, that's for sure.

Why is Tory Free Trade Cronyism preferable to EU Technocratic Cronyism?

Where are the Anglo/Irish acts stating a border will be reinstated? Nobody wants that, it won't happen.

we have an English TRUMP - news to me
it is not just England and we definately do not have anyone resembling Trump at large
You are deluded if you do not see this as a once in a lifetime opportunity but then I guess you will still whine 'we will lose all our rights etc ' without any evidence/certainty that that will be the case.
Remember governments can change every 5 years , the EU will be for life

Thank you for this. I'm place marking to read later. I find the rhetoric spouted by Brexit unhelpful for the most part (Farage, Boris etc) - but I keep coming back to my concerns over whether the EU is really democratic.