To think Owen Jones is childish

[sandrabedminster]

Owen Jones storms off sky news

I don't even get what his issue is, he's invited on to discuss the headlines and then runs off as he doesn't like how much attention the biggest story is getting.

There is always inevitable debate following an atrocity about the relationship between Islam as a religion and these extremists

He has written article about response to attacks in the past

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/nov/25/islamophobia-isis-muslim-islamic-state-paris

He makes some good points I agree with much of what he has said but he simply has not addressed many issues within the religion either.

It makes more sense after reading this, as to why he mimised and said very quickly " some twisted form of Islam" and quickly moved on.

Reports coming in the shooter went to Saudi Arabia on two visits. A radical preacher calling for Gay people to be killed was preaching hate in orlando in March and is now preaching hate in Sydney

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3638438/Orlando-shooting-Controversial-anti-homosexual-sheikh-spoke-Florida-shooting.html

An Islamic preacher who has called for gay people to be executed gave sermons in Orlando just weeks before the Pulse nightclub massacre.

Farrokh Sekaleshfar - a British-born doctor and Muslim scholar - has gained a following by urging Muslims to 'get rid of' homosexuals.

And in April, he took his speech titled 'How to deal with the phenomenon of homosexuality' to the Husseini Islamic Center in Sanford, just outside Orlando, Florida.

Yes I think I also think it's an attack on broader values, on humanity on love and joy and freedom.

and in the last 20 years gay rights have moved forward so much - I remember clause 28 - and to have that atrocity happen in 2016 is a shocking reminder that you are still hated for simply being yourself.

We can all understand that on a human level.

I think that's why the presenter reacted so strongly when OJ said "You're not a gay man so you don't understand" - or something like that. The presenter was trying to make the point (perhaps clumsily) that he felt deeply affronted by it on a human level and didn't need to be part of a gay group to feel that.

I do think we have to be careful about talking to people who do not share our identity. I am a feminist but I don't tell men "you don't understand because of your male privilege". I expect them to try to understand even if they have no experience. And them trying is all I can ask. Telling people that they cannot share what you know is very distancing and although you may feel it's true, you are never going to get closer to them that way.

People have come out will all kind of bollocks about not only Cologne, but all kinds of sexual assaults and murders of women and girls.

And women do sit there and calmly refute those points on TV shows.

That happens to rape victims and to the families of murder victims.

This whole thing of people storming off and so on doesn't mean they're more upset than a person who calmly tries to challenge the opinions of others.

I understand that it occurs in a wider context of homophobia, but ISIS related mass killings are also happening in a wider context. The murders in the Jewish supermarket in Paris have been discussed in a wider context of attacks on the West, not just Anti-Semitism or connected to Hebdo.

Generally people don't just know women, or Middle Eastern ancestry Christians, or Jewish people or gay people. Living in a diverse society means that we're concerned about all the people we know and care about.

It can be about homophobia and about a threat to people from fundamentalism at the same time.

As for the question in the Op, I thought Owen Jones behaved appallingly last night. He quite simply was not willing to discuss any other aspect of the shooting other than it as a homophobic attack. Neither of the other two were disagreeing that it was homophobic but trying to discuss other possible factors in the shooter's motivation which he seemed to take great offence to.

His comment that Mark Longhurst couldn't possibly understand because he wasn't gay was downright offensive. You don't need to be gay to be outraged, disgusted and saddened at the deaths of 50+ young people.

If ISIS were involved then I agree with Mark Longhurst that it is an attack on us all, on our freedom and our rights. We should stand with the Gay community, as one. I'm sorry if that offends Owen Jones!

I was willing to give him the benefit of the doubt last night as someone who was understandably very angry but who picked a fight with the wrong people but with his actions today he's lost my sympathy. I'm bored with him now. This isn't about him!

www.independent.co.uk/voices/distortions-over-isis-involvement-in-orlando-play-into-the-hands-of-the-jihadists-wahhabism-islam-a7080171.html

Interesting article saying why we have to mention radical Islam and aknowledge the power of the preaching coming out of Saudi.

The Saudis likewise punish homosexuality and transgenderism with death, whipping and imprisonment. In 2014, for instance, a man in Saudi Arabia was reportedly sentenced to three years in prison and 450 lashes for using Twitter to arrange dates with other men.

Wahhabi beliefs are close to the Salafi-jihadi ideology and over the last fifty years Wahhabism has become an increasing influence over mainstream Sunni Islam. Sunni who once saw Shia merely as a different type of Muslims now often view them as heretics who are outside Islam. Supported by the vast oil wealth of Saudi Arabia and the Gulf those trained to preach and oversee mosques have become increasingly extreme and, while they may not support terrorist attacks, their beliefs provides fertile soil for those who do.

"If they attack was ISIS connected (for example) a group who want to change our way of life and remove our freedoms I would have no issue with Germany announcing that it was an attack on "us all". I would consider it an act of support i.e. we stand together. If memory serves me, similar messages were given by leaders of the Western world after the Paris and Brussels were attacked. "

Yes but validation follows a proscribed format socially.

"We are so sorry for your losses and we stand with you, England, in your pain tonight. This is an attack on us all".

We would likely feel very different if it was.

"This is an attack on us all".

"I really feel it as an English person".

"Now I wouldn't say that, I wouldn't. It isn't about being English. It's an attack on us all. It is."

Validate and then do the common humanity bit. That is what went wrong here.

Saudi gets away with a lot of human rights abuses and mistreatment of people - especially women and LGBT people. I wonder why?

Probably the same as why China, North Korea and many others do, it's a lot more nuanced than "DAE, OIL AND MONEY!!!"

No. North Korea is not an ally. Saudi Arabia is a proclaimed ally of the UK. As is Qatar which is equally dreadful and responsible for quite a lot of terrorist financing yet good enough to sell some significant trophy assets in London to. You'd have a problem trying to sell anything in London to the North Korean state.

"He has a twisted view of Islam"

No, Owen, he has a very mainstream and well-supported view of Islam, as far as homophobia's concerned. The sight of people turning themselves inside out trying to deny this is bewildering.

Fusion, your comments don't accurately reflect on what happened on Sky News Last night.

It was more like...

"This is an attack on us all".

"No, it's not, you don't understand because you're not English" (said very aggressively)

"Now I wouldn't say that, I wouldn't. It isn't about being English. It's an attack on us all. It is."

What?

Interesting map. Would you say that death penalty and full marriage with protection of rights were broadly similar or very different ways of dealing with LGBT people?

Why would it be a "twisted view of your religion"? Why wouldn't it be an accurate view of your religion? But one that you may choose to ignore because you find it outdated and offensive?

This is probably where most believers of all faiths are today, in the UK. All the major religions are founded on ancient texts and most people pick and choose the bits they care most about. Most Christians have found a way to subtly disregard the bits they don't like in the bible, and good thing too as there's lots of homophobia, nonsense about women, rules about sex that we all ignore in there.

I have contributed loads to this debate. The map is very interesting. I'm sorry if it wasn't tumblr enough for you 'at five minutes in, I felt all the feels' etc.

Yes, fifty people have been killed. Any many here appear to be more concerned that a famous lefty mouthpiece was upset on a UK news programme.

I didn't know the death penalty was in place in so many places. Absolutely awful. The map illustrates how differently people live in different places and cultures, and that we should never take our freedoms for granted when living in a world where state execution of gay people exists.

we should never take our freedoms for granted when living in a world where state execution of gay people exists.

If you want to depress yourself, the UK's established church is hideously homophobic: it consistently voted against both civil partnerships and same sex marriage (not just in church, but full stop) and has recently fought and won an employment tribunal over pressing moral issue of denying employment to homosexuals, something that would be illegal if done by almost anyone else. You don't need to look outside your local church to find a religion that excludes, marginalises and despises gay people. If they accepted them, they'd marry them.

As ever, if you want to find decency, go speak to your local Quakers.

Why this resistance to the idea of 'his people'?

My closest gay friends think he is an irritating, self- righteous prat and consider they have nothing in common with him just because they and he are gay.

Mine too Lass. Mine also bemoans transactivism but that's for another thread. He's the sharpest man I've ever met and he absolutely will not have others speak for him. Apart from me, here, obvs because he isn't a MNer. And he hates social media, actually he can barely operate a Blackberry.