.. to think that "I fear for my sons" and ..

[BertrandRussell]

"I feel sorry for my sons" are just new ways of saying "I hate feminists"?

Bertrand, I absolutely agree with everything you are saying.

But it would be good with a little recognition that some of us who worry about our sons do so not just because they are people growing up in a harsh world, but because the gender-specific risks they are exposed to are so very much part of our everyday lives.

My son is at risk not because he is a person, but precisely because he is male. It's not a general anxiety: it is very, very specifically related to gender. And the fact that it is other males perpetrating the violence doesn't actually give him any more control over it.

Otoh losing male privilege from his perspective is not something to be feared: I cannot imagine that he would feel he lost out in a society where women had an equal voice and equal opportunities and less fear of sexual assault.

poem sex'

how very shakespeare

Now, until the break of day,
Through the house each fairy stray.
To the best bride-bed will we,
Which by us shall blessed be
And the issue they create
Ever shall be fortunate."

BertrandRussell no I don't agree that all men are potential rapists.

The fact that so many people do makes me feel terribly sad for my son. Like SoupDragon said, I hope he never has to deal with anyone who would happily accuse him of having such a reprehensible lack of moral as if it was a fact.

I don't agree that your daughter being raped "trumps" my sons being falsely accused of rape.

Of course it doesn't, and it would be stupid to think that's what was meant, but I am afraid that the first is much more likely than the second.

All women are potential murderers too.

The trouble with the word potential, is that just about everybody is capable of just about everything potentially.

The current Dalai Lama is potentially capable of turning into a Michael Myers-style killer. I am potentially an England-level footballer, even though I never kicked a ball above five times in my life.

The trouble is, when that idiot Camille Paglia used that phrase, she wasn't talking about potential in that way. She's still banging on about an essential human nature as if most twentieth century philosophy never happened. It's one of the many things that makes her one of the most overrated, least intellectually engaged feminist theorists ever. I can't bear her stuff, it's just publicity-seeking nonsense.

The problem with the entire idea ego is the premise that "In our homophobic, heterosexist, discriminatory culture" is entirely false. My very, very good friend (ex-housemate) was beaten to death in a London park for being gay but I don't believe it's representative of our culture.

Also, "norm" (being typical) and "correct way to be" are not, in any way the same to most people. Gay people are not the norm but are no less correct than any other sexuality. There's a big difference.

I have seen the 'I feel sorry/fear for my sons' comments to put feminists down in the last few days.

When people are replying to a thread where we are discussing feminist issues, then yes, I think they are saying it as a way to put feminist's down. Saying you feel sorry for your sons because some women don't like men who automatically pull out chairs for them or they don't like the assumption that they are weaker and need men to help them carry their shopping is a pathetic reason to feel sorry for your sons.

I fear for my sons, and my daughters for many different reasons. I fear that boy's are having more pressure on them to look a certain way as well, it isn't as prevalent as it is for women yet, but I think it is heading that way. I fear for them all because of social media, the easy to access porn etc. House prices, the government and I could go on and on.

When it is used in a discussion about feminism, then yes I think it is often the new way to say that they hate feminists.

I've possibly been guilty of saying exactly that on here. But then I view MN as not a general representation of society. For a start it's mainly women and also there is a far higher proportion of women with younger children rather than older boys/teens.

Boys on MN are often posted about as being over aggressive, dirty and sexualised, teen boys are all busy wanking in their rooms, watching porn and at the same time terrorising the neighbourhood. Husbands and partners are lazy, feckless, sexual predators.

All of these stereotypes exist for sure but they aren't as prevalent as it would seem. i think when people actually have sons and those grow into teens their view of how they are represented becomes heightened and it makes you sad that that is what people think about your lovely child/teen.

Anyway, if actual society was as unfair as you would get the impression it was on here then I think feeling sorry for your sons would be correct, however I think things aren't as bad (or as unequal) in the wider world. There is discrimination everywhere , but fairness isn't the same as things being equal.

A little real life example though that doesn't have anything to to with sexualisation or violence. My DS suffers from social anxiety and this was raised at school in order to see if there was any support available. Apparently they run a fantastic group specifically to deal with that very issue. Unfortunately he couldn't go to it though as it was "just for girls" The title of it didn't indicate that, but as it was only girls who went, they decided that it wouldn't be fair to ruin their "safe environment" by allowing a boy to go. A boy that can' barely speak to his family never mind start causing issues in a group of girls. Anyway, my suggestion that there was probably a boy in every class that could benefit from a group to go to was dismissed - boys don't need help like that it seems. So anyway crux is that he got nothing. I am sure that there is a counter story that would indicate boys being given privilege, I don't have girls so I feel I am less aware of the issues affecting girls now.

And actually,I don't have a problem with looking at my son and thinking "potential rapist" because it reminds me that it's up to me to help him combat the sort of socialisation that led to the recent incident at Stamford.....,,,,

Can't you in fact behave like other parents and instil good values etc,

This.

Society teaches women that all men are potential rapists, in my opinion.

When they say don't walk down dark alleys alone, they are not saying all men on that dark path is a rapist, they are saying there might be one there, so don't walk down it.

When they say don't drink to much, they are not saying all men will rape an incapacitated woman, they are saying some will, so best not to drink.

When they say don't encourage him, they are not saying every man a woman is friendly with will rape her, but that some will.

A woman has absolutely no way of knowing which men are rapists, any random man could be a rapist, saying all men are potential rapists, is not the same as saying all men will rape.

If my son is walking home down a dark path and sees a lone woman ahead pick up speed, he would hold back and let her get more distance between them, he wouldn't be offended that she'd thought he could potentially harm her, to her, he is a potential rapist, she can't know he is not and he'd get why she'd pick up her speed, he'd be offended at the men who rape women and have made a society that tells women not to walk down dark paths alone to protect themselves from rape.

"Fine Bertrand. But if you had a daughter would you also be saying "my daughter could potentially sexually assault someone"?" I am sure that this will be interpreted as me being a man hating virago but I don't actually think that women sexually assault men in the same numbers that men sexually assault women. I think boys and girls have very different lessons to learn about consent. And those lessons are not the ones generally taught by popular culture.

My ds is five. We are bringing him up to respect all people. We an do that without labelling him a potential rapist.

I knew someone (about 10 years ago) who genuinely believed all men were peadophiles and rapists. The only reason most of them did rape women and children was the fear of getting caught.

When I meet someone who thinks my son will want to rape women, I do worry. I worry there are people out there that will think such things and treat him in a certain way because he has a penis.

I worry about the same thing for my Dd. That people will think certain thongs about her and treat her certain ways because she happens to have a vagina.

As a woman I know how damaging gender roles can be. I know it's generally worse for women. Why would I not care when it happens to my son?

Good post WomanActually.

Well said WomanActually. I would add also that if a woman is attacked/raped she is automatically asked what she was doing, with the assumption being that she should have assumed the man in question was a rapist and therefore prevented him from raping her.

WomanActually I think there's a difference in saying that a particular man that you encounter could potentially be a rapist and all men are potential rapists. One is coming from the position that there are some rapists around and you don't know when/where you may encounter one and the other one suggests that all men could potentially rape you (which isn't true - only a rapist could potentially rape you).

Bertrand you are saying you would treat your son as a potential threat and your daughter as a potential victim based solely on their gender. That's the attitude some people who say "I feel sorry for my sons" are objecting to. And if you're serious about treating your son as a potential rapist simply because he has a penis then it's not just my own son I feel sorry for...

There's a difference between objecting to feminism and objecting to man-hating cloaked behind a facade of feminism. Similarly, there are genuine men's rights activists who campaign on issues such as mental health provision, higher suicides rates, prostate cancer etc. But many of them don't call themselves MRAs because that label has been appropriated by a group of odious misogynistic rape apologists. You can object to the latter type of "MRA" while supporting the former (the genuine ones). Same with feminism.