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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

.. to think that "I fear for my sons" and ..

831 replies

BertrandRussell · 09/06/2016 07:54

"I feel sorry for my sons" are just new ways of saying "I hate feminists"?

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80Kgirl · 11/06/2016 11:52

I can't follow the conversation here. I am genuinely confused.

If you think it is wrong to say that "all men are potential rapists" when considering women and girls' safety around men,

Then, surely, it is wrong to say that "all men are potential paedophiles" when considering boys' safety around men.

It seems logically inconsistent to say the former is unreasonable, but the latter is fine. If you don't accept or reject both together, then you are, in effect, saying that boys safety from sexual assault is more important than women's. That cannot be right.

MilkTwoSugarsThanks · 11/06/2016 11:53

Oh and Bert - you still haven't answer the actual question!

Is it OK to say all men are potential paedophiles? Like many consider it OK, even sensible, to say all men are potential rapists?

BertrandRussell · 11/06/2016 11:56

No. All men are not potential paedophiles.

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Itsmine · 11/06/2016 11:58

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

BertrandRussell · 11/06/2016 11:59

I genuinely don't see where I have been inconsistent. Please explain.

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MilkTwoSugarsThanks · 11/06/2016 12:00

80Kgirl - yes. This is what I'm not understanding.

Bert has said many times that she believes all men are potential rapists, but up thread she seems to be saying that to say the same about men being paedophiles is misandry.

Society in general seems to agree with that (but would probably change 'misandry' to 'paranoia').

BertrandRussell · 11/06/2016 12:04

I'm just C&P my earlier reply to you, Milk- I think you must have missed it.

""If saying "all men are paedophiles" is misandry, what is "all men are potential paedophiles"?

Is it OK to assume a man you don't know is a potential paedophile like it's considered OK to assume a man you don't know is a potential rapist.
I think the issue here is that not all men are potential paedophiles. For the overwhelming majority of men they are no more likely to commit an act of paedophilia than fly. But you only have to read the relationship boards, or talk to a group of women to discover that a worryingly large number of them have had sex when they didn't want to. *Men who don't understand about consent, or who have unthinkingly absorbed the messages about sex perpetuated by porn are likely to have un consensual sex. They may not perceive what they have done as rape, but it is."

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MilkTwoSugarsThanks · 11/06/2016 12:06

Bert - So why do you believe that all men are potential rapists then? Either a man is capable of a sex crime (is that the right expression?) or he isn't.

Itsmine · 11/06/2016 12:09

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

MilkTwoSugarsThanks · 11/06/2016 12:10

Sorry - xpost. I did see it, I just didn't think it answered the question. My post at 11:31 explains that I thought bringing the relationship boards up was irrelevant to the actual question.

BertrandRussell · 11/06/2016 12:11

Because paedophilia is not on a continuum. It's like bestiality or necrophilia. A "separate" thing.

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BertrandRussell · 11/06/2016 12:16

I don't think there is a sexuality called "rapeophilia" I think that's the difference.

I think any given person is either a paedophile or not a paedophile. (Mostly, obviously not)

However, I think there are circumstances where any man, particularly if he had not been well educated about consent and had absorbed the messages of pornography could be a rapist. He may not even think what he had done was rape. But it would be
.

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MilkTwoSugarsThanks · 11/06/2016 12:18

What continuum?

Itsmine · 11/06/2016 12:19

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

JassyRadlett · 11/06/2016 12:19

Ok, here's my take.

Anyone I leave my kids with, I will assess, consciously or not, whether that person is likely to care for my child safely. Everything from 'what are the chances of this person being a paedophile' to 'is this person too absent minded to be safe caring for my child.'

For myself, I'm probably more likely to assess things in situational terms, consciously or unconsciously. And depending on the situation that will involve considering the likelihood that any men in that situation may assault me sexually, because that is not uncommon, and because I've been socialised to do that.

If we're being semantic about it - as this thread seems so keen to do - from an individual's perspective any man could turn out to be a rapist, and any person, male or female, could turn out to be a paedophile. One is between twice to four times more likely than the other depending on what stats you read, which will of course affect people's risk perceptions. However having been at a school where a number of children were abused, there is a risk of over-minimising the likelihood of paedophilia.

My point in saying that assuming make child care workers were in that career because they're paedophiles is a misandrist statement stands true - because there is no evidence that men who choose caring professions are more likely to be paedophiles or rapists.

BertrandRussell · 11/06/2016 12:22

"To proclaim all men can potentially do one then you should presume all men can potentially do the other."

No. That is absolutely wrong. And daft.

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MilkTwoSugarsThanks · 11/06/2016 12:25

Sorry, xpost again.

You see - I'm not so sure about that.

30 yr old man - 13 yr old girl
25 yr old man - 14 yr old girl
20 yr old man - 15 yr old girl
18 yr old man - 15 yr old girl
18 yr old man - 16 yr old girl.

If a man - any man - can find a 25 yr old attractive, why not 23, 21, 19, 17, 15 who looks 17, 15..... same continuum. But they don't. Because they're decent human beings. Just like most men are not potential rapists.

Itsmine · 11/06/2016 12:25

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

BertrandRussell · 11/06/2016 12:38

Itsmine- you remind me of a child dancing round with her fingers in her ears chanting "nya nya nyanya nya!"
How about joining in the discussion instead? You might enjoy it!

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JassyRadlett · 11/06/2016 12:40

Just like most men are not potential rapists.

But we expect women to behave as if all men have the potential to be rapists. There's a disconnect between how we expect women to keep themselves safe and the apparent unreasonableness of a man who will never, ever rape being evaluated by a woman for the potential that they might.

MilkTwoSugarsThanks · 11/06/2016 12:41

Bert - don't fling childish insults.

MilkTwoSugarsThanks · 11/06/2016 12:47

Jassy - tbh I don't think women should behave as if all men are potential rapists any more or less than as if all men are potential paedophiles, all women are potential muggers, all women are potential murderers, all shoppers are potential shoplifters etc, etc.

I think you either treat all people with equal suspicion or you don't. Peoples actions and words will help you decide whether that person should become a greater or lesser risk, not whether that person has a penis or a vagina.

MilkTwoSugarsThanks · 11/06/2016 12:51

Sorry - I mashed that sentence in 2nd para!

I mean you either treat people with equal suspicion or no suspicion at all. Or you could just hold your hands up and admit to double standards and not get arsey with people who don't. Or accuse them of misogyny.

BertrandRussell · 11/06/2016 12:53

Milk- I have been ducking childish insults from that particular quarter for some weeks now!
I think your view might be a bit idealistic. Can you genuinely say that if you found yourself alone in a railway compartment late at night you would be equally concerned if the person that joined you was a man or a woman?

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EveryoneElsie · 11/06/2016 12:56

No one behaves with open suspicion, so lets put that one to bed.
Boundaries and safeguards are not about suspicion, they are about minimising risk.