.. to think that "I fear for my sons" and ..

[BertrandRussell]

"I feel sorry for my sons" are just new ways of saying "I hate feminists"?

"If anyone talks about the damaging effects of the patriarchy on boys they are met with "Menz" type comments."

You know, I think some people must be on a completely different website.........

I think it is more likely that a young man would be correctly accused of rape, but genuinely think that what he did was OK.

Yes, very well put.

That is one of the things that I take pains to point out to my 14 yr old, and will do the same with my 11 yr old too.
I have actually just had a conversation with him earlier about drunkeness etc off the back of some of the points on this thread.

This made me happy:
(on the topic of if the girl was drunk then technically she isn't completely able to give informed consent)

Me:
"I know it seems shit that all the responsibility for is on the boy even if the girl seems happy at the time"

My son:
"well it is fair really mum, because it would be taking advantage wouldn't it".

"I fear for my sons. The fact he will be called an evil patriarch for sitting with his legs too far apart on the bus is quite unsettling"

This attitude is the crux of the matter IMO. Because people cannot discuss the accumulative effect of small (and sometimes well meaning) things such as door-opening, low level sexual harassment/compliments, shaving etc without being painted as a man-hating ranting feminist.

What is notable is that in all the door opening threads there are numerous images drawn of ranty feminists tearing strips off well meaning men but very very rarely has the OP complaining or anyone else actually done this in RL

It is perfectly common for feminists, like most women, to find something objectionable in RL, smile politely and say nothing, then come on Mumsnet and express discontent in the hopes of finding like - minded people.

I fear for my boys. Not because of feminism, but because of risks of RL. I fear cos 16 yo is naive. I fear cos 13yo is too knowing. I fear cos postcode territorialism amongst teens still runs amock, and despite mine and DH's vigilance they may inadvertently cross a line they don't know exists. I fear they will find future harsh, won't afford to move out, and so on.
If I had had DDs I would also fear though with differences.
But at the same time I delight in DSs. I enjoy their company and encourage their enthusiasms. We have fun, we support with hugs. We trumpet equality girls/ boys; rich/poor; regardless of religion race or ability.
Just normal, huh?

If anyone talks about the damaging effects of the patriarchy on boys they are met with "Menz" type comments.

Hmm, you must be very unlucky. I've very often discussed the shit effects of the patriarchy on women and on many men and boys, and have had considered and supportive discussions that have agreed that yes, patriarchy is shit for lots of people, that it's right that feminism focuses on improving the situation for women because women are the group most systematically disadvantaged by the patriarchy and also, what it says on the tin, but that one of the side effects of feminism doing things to tackle patriarchal structures and attitudes was that things would improve for a great many men and boys as well.

(To provide context to the above - I am the mother of two sons and will never have a daughter.)

bran i was on that thread too. Some of the views very concerning.

And anyone who says feminists don't dismiss male you all missed the 'sipping on male tears' malarky? But apparently this is 'ironic misandry' and 'a way for girls to unite and feel powerful, even if it's (MOSTLY) a joke '.
www.slate.com/blogs/xx_factor/2014/08/08/ironic_misandry_why_feminists_joke_about_drinking_male_tears_and_banning.html
www.mtv.com/news/2110217/misandry-is-a-joke/

This is apparently okay because to apparently misandry ultimately lacks the same power as misogyny. according to Jillian Horowitz, a feminist author who works in the legal field and studies Gender studies. You can buy mugs and t-shirts with this shit on it.

Oh and what about the #KillAllWhiteMen hashtag? Which had some absolutely hateful posts but has been described as 'a useful rhetorical tool for women of color to vent their frustrations at white supremacy and patriarchy in one fell swoop, with a convenient hashtag to find like-minded'

Is this not worrying?

Whilst we as feminists believe in equal rights for all, there's a very very strong and wide strain of feminism that is absolutely toxic. And it's usually younger women, very vocal on social media, who are ruining the name of feminism and are the very reason why so many young people associate the term with 'man hating'.

With these sorts of attitudes women are very right in fearing for their sons.

There was an AIBU thread a couple of weeks ago about men who make aggressive remarks about boys who date their daughters and how they had better "watch out".

Some of us who dared to comment that male attitudes damage boys as well as girls were faced with dismissive "poor menz" comments.

Some of you were on that thread too.

Grays, you've torn me two ways

I read the link you posted and quite liked this bit:

“It’s a good way to weed out cool dudes from the dumb bros.” As Zimmerman puts it: “The men who get annoyed by misandry jokes are in my experience universally brittle, insecure, humorless weenies with victim complexes,” while the “many intelligent, warm, confident feminist men in my life … mostly get the joke immediately and play along. They're not worried I actually want to milk them for their tears.”

I like it because it's employing the same stupid justification given by letchy, 'just bantering' men.
I like it because it's completely minimising and belittling.
It's exactly the sort of tactic I've used myself to counter shitty misogynistic crap in the past.
But that makes me just as bad as those men though, doesn't it? And I don't like to think that about myself...

This part of your post I agree with completely:

Whilst we^ as feminists believe in equal rights for all, there's a very very strong and wide strain of feminism that is absolutely toxic. And it's usually younger women, very vocal on social media, who are ruining the name of feminism and are the very reason why so many young people associate the term with 'man hating'.

With these sorts of attitudes women are very right in fearing for their sons.^

I don't like it because unless a man conforms to this 'humour' (which I can't stand) he is labelled 'brittle, insecure and a humorless weenie'. He has to laugh about and engage in misandrist behaviour to be seen as 'intelligent, warm and confident'. So men have to laugh at 'male tears' they have to laugh at KillAllMen tweets, they have to laugh about Men are Scum patches to be seen as worthy. Some people believe in fighting fire with fire, I don't because there's people caught in the crossfire who don't deserve it.

And whilst some many see KillAllMen as a tongue in cheek thing, it has a wider impact.

I think I'm just getting a bit tired of attitudes, especially from women who are in positions of privilege and those who label themselves 'activists', like this woman hequal.wordpress.com/2015/04/01/kill-all-men-fk-men-die-cis-scum-says-lib-dem-executive-committe-member/ and this one www.telegraph.co.uk/men/thinking-man/11962537/Whats-so-funny-about-a-mens-rights-debate.html

It seems like instead of trying to encourage equality by changing attitudes so women are on par with men we aren't doing that, it seems that people are trying to lower men so it levels out that way instead.

We want want: ↑Women, ↑Men.
Currently: ↓Women ↑Men
Fire with fire results in: ↓Women ↓Men.

Just read the links in your last post - they're awful.

I agree with you completely.

I agree Maryz

You will get people though saying 'thats not feminism!' and of course, it isn't supposed to be, but it's become a prolific view and it's terrible.

This is the only forum in which I enjoy reading feminist posts, there's some extremely intelligent, well read and passionate feminists (Buffy being one of them) and it's heartening to see them. But other places and in real life? I'm seeing some things that disgust me and make me worry for my son in the future.

That's not to say I don't read stuff on here that I question, like this thread, but the majority is heartening.

MangoMoon
I live in Britain, not one of the countries where women live in genuine fear.
I do though think that a lot of women in these discussions over-exaggerate 'the fear' that they have living in 21st century Britain.

Compare this dismissive comment about violence towards women and how it changes our behaviour, with your last comment on this page about men and their suffering.

I was never scared. It's only when I started reading more things about women being scared that I became scared. It becomes an echo chamber and influences you more than you think.

What comment specifically Elsie, as I have my settings at 1 whole page so not separate pages - and I can't be arsed to change my settings or hunt for it.

Many thanks!

GraysAnalogy posted links to #KillAllMen

MangoMoon
Just read the links in your last post - they're awful.
I agree with you completely.

You minimised violence towards women, and womens fears about violence, then posted that a few pages later.

*I don't live my life being afraid of these things either tbh.
I live in Britain, not one of the countries where women live in genuine fear.
I'm 41, I've been groped & cat-called and all the other shit that we shouldn't have to have experienced - all of which have made me disgusted, angry, wearied etc.

However, I do not live a life of fear.
I do though think that a lot of women in these discussions over-exaggerate 'the fear' that they have living in 21st century Britain.*

Above is the entire quote, not a selective cut & paste job!

It was in direct response to this:
(Also quoted in my post, so that it was clear that that was what I was responding directly to)

I dont know a single man who is afraid to walk around women. Day or night,. single women or groups.
I dont know a man who is afraid of the consequenses of wearing shorts round women.
I dont know of any men who change their behaviour to be safe around women.

I dont think most women believe the risk we live with is over exaggerated.

The 'over-exaggeration' comment in my post was directly in response to the "over-exaggeration" statement in the post I responded to.

And yes, I do think that "I'm afraid to wear shorts" is an exaggeration tbh.

Very disingenuous to take bits and shove them together to try and pull someone up (even missing words off a sentence for added effect!).

MangoMoon
I live in Britain, not one of the countries where women live in genuine fear.

Thank you for clarifying where you stand on violence towards women. I'm sure Womens Aid and Rape crisis will be relieved they can pack up and go home.

Gosh!

Another patronising post Elsie - how wonderfully passive/aggressive of you!

I got your point mango, probably because of what I mentioned in my previous post about how I wasn't scared until I was being told I should be scared.