"Rape...is not caused by rapists" WTF!?!

[Unacceptable]

If you aren't aware of the rapist Brock Turner and the campaigners who think he's getting a hard time, have a read of this guardian link.

AIBU to think that the statement from Leslie Rassmussen decrying political correctness that harms poor boys like Brock is the dumbest piece of shit I've ever read?

Even in their drunkest, most ridiculous states my Husband, Brothers and adult sons would not rape a woman because, and I'm sure Leslie wouldn't want to entertain this notion, they wouldn't rape somebody because they aren't rapists!!!!

Brock clearly is.
Having sex without consent is rape.
Forcing yourself upon an unconscious person is rape.

You don't have to be a stranger in a dark alley to do that, just your normal, average, everyday twat.

I know it is hard to accept the wrongdoings of a loved one.
I know we'd all fight to protect those we care about but you can still fucking accept the mistakes that people make...even if you can't get your head around it, don't bury your head in the sand and pretend it's less of an abuse because 'he's a nice guy'.
When will people wake the fuck up?

Link: gu.com/p/4kk46/stw

neither party can believe

Ffs gone. Totally taking the previous thread out of context and you know it.
For other readers, the scenario on the previous thread was a women went into a bedroom with a man for sex, he left the room to get viagra, his friend came in to the pitch dark room, got into bed with the woman. They had sex, she was shocked to find it wasn't the order final guy and filed a rape complaint. Second guy claimed he had consent because she grabbed him. Both agree it was mistaken identity.

That's what the repeated claims were about. I don't think that's a simple as someone saying yes when they meant no.

Order final = original. Sorry

"Fair enough - I don't think it's helpful to waste all our time circling the same ground."

If you keep posting things other posters think are wrong, other posters will keep disagreeing with you.

The claims were theoretical and applying to any situation actually-the starting point for the discussion is neither here nor there. Anyway, I don't appreciate your language so... whatever. I'm opting out of this in favour of father's day.

You don't appreciate a FFS?

Hmm, MN may be a bit robust for you!

"However I also cannot avoid the knowledge that it's quite easy to wake up and think 'what the * did I get up to last night?' and be genuinely taken aback at the things you said and did. "

The thought that x experience of yours could in rare situations mean someone else will allege rape is not "knowledge" and the pragmatic truth criterion applies: are lots of drunk women with no memory of events alleging rape and bringing it through to prosecution? No? Well then, not much to concern yourself with.

And you don't know where I am getting the idea you are predominantly taking a male perspective and making negotiation of sexual relations a woman's responsibility? Really? Are you reading your own posts?

I bailed out at 'Don't you think that men are influenced by their experiences of being with women who are acting like blow up dolls'. p17.

'However I also cannot avoid the knowledge that it's quite easy to wake up and think 'what the * did I get up to last night?' is an odd comment at best for a thread about rape.

However I also cannot avoid the knowledge that it's quite easy to wake up and think 'what the did I get up to last night?' and be genuinely taken aback at the things you said and did*

This is exactly what happened in the OP (remember the OP?) because she was unconscious and could not say what had happened the night before. The rapist said that this means he cannot be guilty of rape - because she is not able to say what happened. She only found out from the hospital and from press reports. The rapist's argument was there cannot be a crime because the victim is not able to say what the heck happened, so the only 'evidence' of what happened is his own account of events. Luckily the jury wasn't thick enough to agree with him.

If you are the victim of a crime it doesn't matter whether you think 'what the heck just happened' the next morning or not. Lots of people are hit over the head and mugged and they wake up the next morning thinking 'what the fuck happened yesterday'. Doesn't mean it wasn't a crime.

Also want to add that the victim reports posted upthread are harrowing, especially the Edinburgh one. The experience of reporting a rape and going through all the involved institutions, police and medical, is horrific. The idea that anyone would put themselves through that trauma because they regret what they got up to last night is scarcely credible.

In cases of false accusations there is usually a lot of evidence that the story is totally made up - that is how the police know that something is not right and soon uncover that it is false. There was that girl who sent fake texts to herself, and pretended her boyfriend had sent them. The police are not actually as stupid as many people think - it is not that easy to just walk in and say you've been raped when you haven't and fool them into making up charges out of nothing more than 'I'm not sure what the heck I did last night'

Yet some people are obsessed with the fear that women are tempted to make false accusations - this is what makes them think rape should be virtually impossible to get convicted for.

I would be more interested in a definition from someone who worked for Women's Aid and had a professional knowledge of a variety of coercive relationships and survivors of rape.

But you weren't were you gone?

In fact you decided that because I identify as a feminist, I therefore have nothing to add, because... I dunno, whatever wall of words you've decided to excuse rapists with this time. Because according to her feminists don't get raped or have abusive relationships or have their sexual partners carry on pounding away at them when they are in tears.

Kind

The legal position does not seem to be easy or clear in cases like that once the law (CPS, judge, jury all people like we are here) is actually involved in prosecuting it.

The legal position is completely clear, how people choose to twist that position to their own ends doesn't affect the clarity or otherwise of the legal position. Plus, of course, the people who insist that women lie, that they can and therefore must do something in order to prevent men from raping them and all the other rape myths that people seem to think are helpful to keep on spreading merely serve to muddy the waters.

CPS have clarified the legal position. Judges tend to be old white men, so it's not too much surprise they protect their own, as in the Turner case and juries are made up of people who either believe rape myths or use their brains for thinking or somewhere in between.

I agree with palmer and the myth that rape law is 'unclear' is one of the worst myths out there. It allows rapists to surround their rapes with smoke and mirrors - the law is unclear, consent is complicated, and women's intentions are very confusing with their mixed signals. These are the hallmarks of rape culture.

In fact that's why I'm so against 'consent seminars' that some universities are introducing. It suggests that avoiding rape is so complicated, without a university-level course in how not to rape you just might find yourself innocently raping someone

Kawliga i don't think they're necessarily a bad thing. So so many young people(boys and girls) still don't know what constitutes rape-like victim really drunk or unconscious, that it can happen with a boyfriend, that changing your mind after going to someone's room for sex is allowed,that flirting and dancing does not mean you're up for it,that oral sex cannot be forced!!! Etc- so educating both sides on this can only be beneficial.

It's quite telling that you bailed at that particular point, gone.

"It suggests that avoiding rape is so complicated, without a university-level course in how not to rape you just might find yourself innocently raping someone "

Isn't this the same as telling mothers that they need to 'teach their sons not be rapists' on MN?

Agree with Rebel. I think it didn't occur to Ched Evans and Clayton McDonald that a woman could be too drunk to consent. That and CM's "got a bird" text to CE is rape culture and I'm happy with any measures to counter it.

There are also some PSHE initiatives to tackle consent better in schools.

I don't agree that unless someone teaches you a class on 'consent', you won't know that it's wrong to take advantage of a drunk person.

Some other things that people have done recently to a drunk friend: punch them, knock them out, and unwittingly kill them, because the drunk friend said 'no, really, punch me as hard as you can in the head!' Those killers went to prison for manslaughter, and rightly so. Nobody said they should be let off because they never attended classes in how not to hurt someone just because they're drunk and so it was a complicated situation.

Friends look after their drunk friends, not hurt them. And that's without having attended some special lecture on the subject.

Somehow, when it comes to "sex" people think that right and wrong suddenly becomes impossible to figure out without a degree in advanced psychology. I put "sex" in quotes because rape is about violence, not sex.

Kaw, that's not what I said. I think plenty of people do know that it's wrong, but happy for classes to reinfurce that message

"Studies show that the major motive for rape is power, not sex. Sex is used as a weapon to inflict pain, violence and humiliation. Most rapists appear to have normal personalities with an abnormal tendency to be aggressive and violent. Between 2/3 and 3/4 of sexual assaults are planned in advance."

from www.mnsu.edu/varp/assault/myths.html

Let us stop implying that rape is about innocent people trying to have sex with someone who fancied them when suddenly....the woman just started saying they were raped for no reason that anybody can understand unless they get specialized training in how to spot consent.

Kawliga

Again, I didn't say anything of the kind. Please read my other posts on the thread if you think I did.

Night.

Should university students also get classes in how not to steal other people's property? Or how not to get a knife and stab someone with it? No, of course not. It is wrong to treat rape differently from other violent crimes. I agree with the boys who are refusing to attend such classes because it demeans them and their sense of decency towards fellow human beings.

Treating rape as some of special complicated crime that needs lessons in how to avoid it is exactly why judges/juries hesitate to convict. If the accused person has never attended a university course on how not to rape others, then surely he cannot be blamed? Because it's so complex that without lessons he had no hope of grasping it? This is the danger we are getting into.

Sorry, detestable I didn't mean to imply that I was only responding to what you said - in fact I am completely wound up by those posters (admittedly few, but damaging nonetheless) who came on quite early in the thread saying that the crime in the OP was complicated. Also, we have had many such threads on MN, and I really feel strongly that we should fight against the tendency for people to present rape as a crime beyond the ability of most people to understand.

Sorry again detestable my fury wasn't directed at you but at the rape apologists on here.

Palmer
CPS have clarified the legal position
All I know is that people who probably were rapists are getting acquitted.
And other people who may well have raped are not charged because there is not enough lack of evidence.

juries are made up of people who either believe rape myths or use their brains for thinking or somewhere in between

What did you mean by saying they use their brains for thinking here? I am unclear, not arguing about it.
RebelRogue
so educating both sides on this can only be beneficial I agree and it is certainly worth trying.
As you said girls may well not even know they are allowed to stop at any point.
Boys may actually believe that No does not really mean no, and the girl wants it really. They are seeing that in porn too.

So many girls/people are getting raped and sexually assaulted who do not dare report it, and if they do there is not enough evidence.

Anything that can might improve things is worth trying.

Kawliga no one said that. Have you ever considered that it's good for the girls to know that x,y,z situation is rape? That waking up naked next to a guy you don't remember (when you don't really remember most of the night) is rape no matter how much he tells you how wonderful it was and how much you liked it? That getting wet is not a sign you wanted it? That dancing and flirting to someone does not mean you have to let him stick his dick in you? That any type of coercion is rape? That a boyfriend can rape you? That it's not as simple as shutting your mouth or "biting it off" and that oral penetration can be rape? That they can change their minds? That agreeing to an euphemism like "netflix and chill" , "a cup of coffee" does not mean agreeing to sex?Because some really don't and victim blame. Because some don't and minimise what happened. Because some don't and shoulder the full blame of what happened. Because the rape culture is many times a lot louder than "i believe you"

The crime may be simple. Stopping whatever is happening that makes it so very common evidently is not.

Why exactly isn't stopping it simple? What is going wrong?