"Rape...is not caused by rapists" WTF!?!

[Unacceptable]

If you aren't aware of the rapist Brock Turner and the campaigners who think he's getting a hard time, have a read of this guardian link.

AIBU to think that the statement from Leslie Rassmussen decrying political correctness that harms poor boys like Brock is the dumbest piece of shit I've ever read?

Even in their drunkest, most ridiculous states my Husband, Brothers and adult sons would not rape a woman because, and I'm sure Leslie wouldn't want to entertain this notion, they wouldn't rape somebody because they aren't rapists!!!!

Brock clearly is.
Having sex without consent is rape.
Forcing yourself upon an unconscious person is rape.

You don't have to be a stranger in a dark alley to do that, just your normal, average, everyday twat.

I know it is hard to accept the wrongdoings of a loved one.
I know we'd all fight to protect those we care about but you can still fucking accept the mistakes that people make...even if you can't get your head around it, don't bury your head in the sand and pretend it's less of an abuse because 'he's a nice guy'.
When will people wake the fuck up?

Link: gu.com/p/4kk46/stw

[sklooshy]

There was a video circulating around Facebook recently about a cup of tea.

Sober and no alcohol:
Would you like to have a cup of tea?
No.
Ok I won't force you to drink a cup of tea

After a few drinks, feeling a bit drunk:
Would you like a cup of tea?
No.
Ok I won't force you to drink a cup of tea.

Very drunk and not capable of making sensible decisions:
Would you like a cup of tea?
No.
Ok I won't force you to drink a cup of tea.

Unconscious and unable to communicate:
Would you like a cup of tea?
No response.
I will not force you to drink a cup of tea!

It's not a complicated matter, no one has the right to put anything into or touch anyone else's body with out consent. ( obviously I'm excluding the obvious medical emergency situations )

[kawliga]

I agree that girls (and boys) - any victim - should be taught that it's your right to say no, at any stage, and that if anyone forces them to have sex that is rape, regardless of circs., and that they are not to blame even if they were drunk or were wearing tatty clothes or walking alone at night.Those lessons I agree with entirely. I also agree with public awareness posters that say 'rape is wrong, don't rape people, if you do we will lock you up' or other such, (can't remember the exact words that they were putting up in train stations).

The seminars I don't agree with are the classes for boys to be taught the meaning of consent. As this thread (and many other threads of MN!!) have shown, when people start treating the idea of consent as something very complex - attend the classes if you want to understand! - we slide into a situation where even the clearest situation of rape (the OP, the girl was unconscious ffs) starts looking 'complicated'.

You can already see it on this thread - wait, she was drunk, that makes it complicated! Um, no. As for 'nobody has said that', we are now into 600+ messages, not sure whether I'm going to go back and pull up the offending ones - you can look back if you want to that discussion about the 'tea' analogy which in sum some people said it's useless because it's too simple while rape is very complex, in fact too complex for any earthly analogy that any human being can come up with.

Oddly enough, there is complexity to all crimes. Fraud can be complex. So can theft. We teach our dc not to cheat, and not to steal. Simples. We don't say fraud/theft is so complex the dc might end up in prison unless they have seminars in how not to try and cheat or steal from other people.

Lead an honest life, do not rape other people, and you're good to go. It is not difficult. Most people manage to get through life without raping others (and no, they did not require special training to achieve that).

[Felascloak]

I'd not thought about that to do with rape classes kawliga but I agree. Look at Brock going round teaching people about the dangers of alcohol and how drinking can ruin your life.
Incidentally it's now being reported that the women's swim team found him intimidating and wanted to write to the judge but were pressured not to by the uni. Ffs.
www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3644013/Stanford-women-s-swim-team-vowed-never-rapist-Brock-Turner-parties-lewd-behavior-considered-writing-letters-judge-pressured-university-officials-not-to.html

[RebelRogue]

If you go back a few years ago,being raped while drunk got you laughed out of the police station. It wasn't rape. Go back a few more years and a husband could not rape his wife in the eyes of the law and so on. The law got updated on everything that is considered rape,society still hasn't. Victims have had to come out and go public and say "this is rape" because society refused to acknowledge it,like date rape. There are still so many people today that think rape only happens to other people. That it happens on back alleys by strangers and somehow it can be preventable.


I don't see them as consent is sooo complicated you need special classes to understand it. I see it as awareness and warning ..it doesn't matter if you think it's right or wrong...if you go ahead with it,you are committing a crime,you are committing rape and you will be arrested,prosecuted and (hopefully) convicted of it. Maybe i'm just naive.

[PalmerViolet]

Kind

What did you mean by saying they use their brains for thinking here? I am unclear, not arguing about it.

I am saying that people who spread and believe rape myths are thick and merely use their brains to keep their ears apart.

Consent should be taught as part of PHSE from reception onwards. We live in a culture that tells girls that their worth is tied up with their looks and fuckability and we teach boys that they rule the world. Starting with things like kind hands and bodily autonomy from birth would be best, but if parents fail to do that, then sadly, schools will have to pick up the slack as part of PHSE. There is an excellent charity based in Bolton that runs consent workshops for all ages.

Actually, what those young men told me about themselves when they refused to go to the consent workshop run alongside internet safety ones and responsible drinking ones, which they did attend, is that they think that they know better than anyone else. Like Brock Turner did.

[venusinscorpio]

I agree sexual consent should be looked at as part of pse. I think it's too late by uni.

[PalmerViolet]

I agree.

[Bravada]

It's ridiculous to suggest that a woman would invent a claim of rape because she merely regretted what she did (willingly) the night before.

If you were embarrassed and regretful about something you had done, why would you subject yourself to all that scrutiny over it? It's just a ridiculous suggestion.

I'm worried about Gone, he seems so convinced that this kind of thing is worth worrying about.

[PalmerViolet]

I would suggest that gone has a vested interest in consent being complicated, if the post she wrote about her sexual relationship with her DH is correct, which is very sad indeed, but not unusual.

[gonetoseeamanaboutadog]

palmer I don't think you bothered to read that post properly or the surrounding information I gave, which is probably down to your own vested interest in discrediting my opinion. My DH is so, so much nicer than you and ironically, would never stoop to the mocking passive aggression that seems to be your speciality.

As you were, I don't like you and have no time to argue with you. But leave my DH out of it, if you would.

[Felascloak]

I'm sure she did read it properly, I certainly did and I agree with Palmer. You shared the experience, and it was very sad to read about it.

[PalmerViolet]

gone, I did read your post properly. It made me very sad to read it, that must have been a truly horrible experience for you. I read it very similarly to pretty much everyone else.

I do hope that generally your DH is far kinder to you than you depicted him as being, because the way you have written about him makes him sound like a bit of a monster, if I'm honest, and if you were a friend who had told me that experience, I would be deeply worried about you.

I'm not entirely sure how you get passive aggressive from our interactions, however, your dripping hatred of me is apparent to all, which is a shame. I hope you find some peace, you do seem to be an extremely angry and hurt person, and I feel rather sorry for you.

[PalmerViolet]

However, as others now know you're still reading the thread gone, it might be good manners to answer some of their questions to you, don't you think?

[gonetoseeamanaboutadog]

I wouldn't give a xxxx about being polite on this thread, nor would I be remotely interested in your ideas of what courtesy might consist of, palmer.

I can't remember having another experience of coming into contact with such a thoroughly unpleasant, passive aggressive character as you have been.

I haven't been reading the thread so have no idea if my name has been referenced before now or not. I happened to scroll down 'posts I'm on' and saw I'd been mentioned.

Given that you were aggressive, unpleasant and vehemently opposed to having someone with unpopular views stating them on 'your' thread, I'm very surprised that any questions would have been made to prolong the agony of my being on the thread and very surprised that you think I have nothing better to do than scroll through a thread I haven't enjoyed much, have found no common ground in, and have given up all hope of being able to have, in my view, a reasonable conversation.

So sorry if you were hoping to do a little bit more under the rug bullying, violet (something I noticed you were doing to someone else on a different thread quite recently so it's obviously a habit) - nothing happening here. If you mention my delightful dh again I will report you for bullying, as I do believe it's bullying to hound those with unpopular views off a thread and continue, after they have left, to discuss them and any personal information they may have disclosed. I suggest you acquire your own life and discuss that instead.

[kawliga]

I agree with palmer as a general point, some women are vested in believing consent is too complicated for anyone to explain.

About consent classes, I agree with this Warwick uni student:
"It was quite insulting to be invited to a class that implies, at this age, I don’t know not to rape people. I already know not to do that. It was quite insulting to my humanity and empathy.” www.independent.co.uk/student/news/warwick-university-student-george-lawlor-defends-his-controversial-rape-consent-article-and-says-a6748186.html

If you actually raise a dc that needs to be taught not to insist on having sex with a woman who doesn't want to have sex, there is something VERY wrong with how you raised them. I teach my dd that if her friend doesn't want to play the game she's trying to get them to play, she should drop it because it's ok for them not to want to play that game or not to feel like playing at that time. Both children have to want to play for the game to be fun. Sometimes she asks me to play and I say no, I don't feel like playing. She gets it, and she didn't need special training to understand that.

Children learn very early about participation and respect for others - and that's long before "sex" comes into it. It's a normal way of living, that often you can't do what you hoped because the other participants don't fancy it. It's not rocket science is it. It's not like 'consent' is a weird and strange thing that only comes up with "sex" so children won't understand unless they're taught.

I would remind everybody that rape is about violence and power, not sex. If you are going to have classes that teach 'do not be violent to others to try and get your own way' that's one thing, and that would probably be ok (though again I think it should be pretty obvious that violence is not ok).

[venusinscorpio]

I was thinking more that sexual consent could be explored in an educational environment at a much earlier age, which while being supportive of both boys and girls, gets across the message that as an individual you are allowed to say no to anything you're not comfortable with, looks at what is pressure etc and how you might yourself put pressure on someone without thinking about it. How someone might not feel confident to say no, or may feel scared of what will happen if they do. As teenagers the law around consent could be examined. It's been demonstrated time and again that many people don't understand elements of it.

While I agree with you that primarily rape is a crime of violence and power, sex is an important component, and the reason for most of the rape myths which flourish in society. I also think it would be harder to falsely claim reasonable belief in consent due to the victim's behaviour if people had a better understanding of what consent is.

[RebelRogue]

Well my 13-14 yo classmates definitely didnt't know no means no. Well they probably did,but that their fun was above it. Attitude reinforced in the classroom by teachers. No idea how things were at home,but at school they were the golden boys. No idea if they ever figured it out or if such consent classes would've helped but one can hope. Parents and other responsible adults in a child's life aren't always interested or good role models.

P.s. I've had to explain to dd that no one can kiss her if she doesn't want to,and just because a boy says he's her boyfriend it doesn't make it so. She's bloody 4!!!!

[DetestableHerytike]

Oh Rebel

[venusinscorpio]

I really think it would reinforce the idea that consent is something to be taken seriously. As Rebel says, not everyone is getting that message. Others may also have more courage to call out dodgy behaviour when they see it.

[DetestableHerytike]

Thanks for your apology kawliga

It's not just rape where consent is an issue. Teenagers need to know that, say, sending unsolicited dick pics to women is imposing sexual images on someone without their consent. It's not a "bit of fun". Sharing naked pictures is illegal publication if underage.

It's teaching to counter the idea that women are in a state of consent unless and until they say otherwise, where it should be a starting point of non-consent and mutual progression.

Then this of course gets self servingly distorted by the rapey-minded into wanting a signed process or whatever, feminists don't like sex, blah blah.

Messages coming from porn, magazines etc need to be countered somehow.

Yes, ideally, it would happen at home, but we can't assume it will. I agree school is a better place to start than uni.

[WallisSimpson11]

There is only one punishment fit for such scum!

[RebelRogue]

I'm honestly not making excuses for them but those boys were nearly never told no. They were allowed to bully,harass,hit etc classmates(male or female)and it was all dismissed and excused. One of them kept changing his seating and feeling up girls(consensual as far as i know) but none of the teachers ever "saw" or questioned it. Most girls were fawning over them including girls 3-4 years older. They were the superstars of the school. I made my peace with what happened and them. What i can't get over is the adults around me and them that did sweet fuck all...from the ones that knew for sure what happened,to the ones that suspected something happened but couldn't be arsed to ask further questions. It was a lot easier to refer to the tom boyish,awkward,fat and suddenly aggressive and out of control girl as a "bitch in heat" . That's what my mum(in front of me) was told my behaviour was during camp,my mum who knew exactly what happened and didn't say a thing knowing i had a whole year ahead of seeing them every single fucking day.

[supersoftcuddlytoys]

It's ridiculous to suggest that a woman would invent a claim of rape. No it isn't, it does happen.

[DetestableHerytike]

Don't quote half a sentence, super. Really bad form.

The full sentence is:

"It's ridiculous to suggest that a woman would invent a claim of rape because she merely regretted what she did (willingly) the night before."

And for further context, the next sentence is:

If you were embarrassed and regretful about something you had done, why would you subject yourself to all that scrutiny over it? It's just a ridiculous suggestion.

[Mimicat44]

Well hopefully he'll be receiving some 'action' in jail