"Rape...is not caused by rapists" WTF!?!

[Unacceptable]

If you aren't aware of the rapist Brock Turner and the campaigners who think he's getting a hard time, have a read of this guardian link.

AIBU to think that the statement from Leslie Rassmussen decrying political correctness that harms poor boys like Brock is the dumbest piece of shit I've ever read?

Even in their drunkest, most ridiculous states my Husband, Brothers and adult sons would not rape a woman because, and I'm sure Leslie wouldn't want to entertain this notion, they wouldn't rape somebody because they aren't rapists!!!!

Brock clearly is.
Having sex without consent is rape.
Forcing yourself upon an unconscious person is rape.

You don't have to be a stranger in a dark alley to do that, just your normal, average, everyday twat.

I know it is hard to accept the wrongdoings of a loved one.
I know we'd all fight to protect those we care about but you can still fucking accept the mistakes that people make...even if you can't get your head around it, don't bury your head in the sand and pretend it's less of an abuse because 'he's a nice guy'.
When will people wake the fuck up?

Link: gu.com/p/4kk46/stw

And gone, I find the posts that your dh didn't notice you crying during sex very, very disturbing. That is not normal, it's really not. But perhaps goes some way to explain your slightly 'off' posts on here.

Vile creature and let's say the apple doesn't fall far from the tree with a dad like that.

under

If you read my post carefully, I think it's clear that I wasn't crying during sex.

My posts aren't slightly off, actually, anymore than yours are. Who are you to tell me that my opinions and views are of less value than your own, or what is 'normal'? I am a woman too. My perspective is valid too. I have a right to weigh into these debates as much as you do and I think it's incredibly 'off' that you are trying to silence my voice, and the voices of other posters who have also put forward similar perspectives or pointed out the contradictions in your own views. You don't have the corner on anything related to my gender and I don't think you are disturbed about me so much as looking for a reason to invalidate my viewpoint.

It's interesting that another poster also picked up on this and said my DH was coercing me, as if there had to be a perpetrator if two people were on different wavelengths during sex. A narrative in which I was a victim seemed to be assumed and constructed within seconds. And the reality? Nothing is further from the truth. My DH is, IMO, almost painfully careful not to coerce me into having sex. He does not even assume I will feel like holding hands or get undressed in front of him. And he was very upset to find I wasn't 100% present during that encounter. But it was my choice to continue and I always knew that.

You put it beautifully fusion (and I disagree with some of the views you've expressed BTW and care not a particle if you are pissed off) when you said that sex should stop if the other person has lost sight of you as a human being. I am not sure women always find it 'simple' to show men who they are as human beings, whether that is saying what they want or saying what they don't want. Especially women who are not feminists.

This is the problem...life is complicated. People are complicated, especially when they're vulnerable and trying to get it 'right', rather than thinking of what they want and feel comfortable with. It's nothing to do with men and women being from being planets so I'm not trying to say that men are a bit slow on the uptake. It would be lovely is sex was so simple and most of the time it probably is, but sometimes our words have coercive effects that we can't foresee at the time. My male friend who had sex against his will felt deeply manipulated when his casual GF responded to his reluctance to take things further by crying and saying 'Don't you find me attractive?'. She didn't say 'You don't want tea? Fine.' She messed up, probably because she did not know that voicing her insecurities about being turned down would have a horribly coercive effect. I would not like to see her defined as a rapist, though.

But about Brock...he's a shit. Absolutely.

They are having sex with an unconscious girl behind a dumpster and still come to court saying it's very complicated.

That's a real risk; that people will pretend it was complicated when it wasn't. It doesn't mean there aren't times when it wasn't as crystal clear as it was for Brock.

Kinddogs I agree with you that a video about 'what happens before tea' would be helpful. The moment of consent doesn't happen in a vacuum.

Also, I would genuinely like opinions on if my male friend was raped, both before you knew that the girl had said 'Don't you find me attractive?' and given that she did say it.

I'm saying it's not normal for a man to not notice that the woman he's having sex with is crying. You have a very skewed view of things if you think that's ok.

Sorry. And I haven't read the rest of your post (or all your recent posts) because they're a bit strange. To me, it sounds like you're trying to excuse men not knowing about consent. Believe me - they do. The rapey ones pretend not to, or just don't care.

You care not a particle? Charming. You care not a particle that you are arguing over and over incredibly incoherently what I don't even know. It actually makes no sense. It is nonsense. And yet incredibly important to you apparently to say it is 'complicated'. Feminism has fuck all to do with it. As another poster said we are hardwired to know to stand out of someone's way on a footpath but apparently it is nigh on impossible for poor menz to know if they are coercing a woman sexually because they don't know how to express themselves sexually. Bullshit. Absolute bullshit. And desperately unkind in many ways too to those of us who HAVE been violated in a world that denies us our bodily autonomy over and over because it is such an interesting complex BULLSHIT debate.

Gone

This is why I flagged earlier in the thread that you are stretching for reasons why victims are partly responsible.

At no point did my post point to your opinion of this case and this victim, although you apparently requested my post to be removed on the basis of that interpretation; AFAIK, my post remains.

Posters are expressing concern about you. You might feel that concern is misplaced, but responding the way you have goes beyond misplaced.

Finally, why shouldn't the norm be "unsure that she/he is into it? Stop. Get their email address, meet them another time, whatever. It's only sex. Nothing bad happens if you stop when you didn't need to; plenty bad happens, whether or not that bad meets a legal definition of a crime, if you don't stop when you should have done."

I agree that gone's posts are incoherent, fusion. I gave up with them a while back - they are too long and too lacking in coherence.

Gone - I can't work out what you're trying to say. Consent is beautifully simple. It is only rapists/apologists that twist it, complicate it and try to make it not so.

Ted Poe, a 67 yr old US Republican get's it - now IME white male Republicans are not renowned for their feminism. But he get's it. It's not difficult.

Leslie Rasmussen's letter to the judge - where she says she knows FOR A FACT he's 'not one of those people' (a rapist)

I get so sick and tired of people who defend rapists by saying crap like that - oh I know him and he's so nice, he wouldn't hurt a fly, I absolutely know he couldn't have done that'

Only 6% of reported rapes end in conviction. Are 94% of us liars? I could bang my head against the fucking wall in frustration.

Drunk, I think.

gonetoseeamanaboutadog

I'm responding to the OP. I haven't read this whole thread but your last post 'these posts remind me of the way a rapist works ironically' is really offensive especially to those of us who have been raped and have then been called a liar.

Awful.

Did you just compare people here to a rapist? Seriously?
You've been talking about blurred lines of consent in a disturbing, vague and incoherent way.
You've been asked for clarification. No one can tell what you are actually trying to say, what point you are trying to make.

Now this.

Saying consent is beautifully simple is the opposite of Rapey.

Saying that a man should be constantly aware that sex is reciprocal, and that his partner is not crying is the opposite of rapey.

Disagreeing with someone who is implying that there are "grey" areas of consent, or that it is difficult for men to know that their partners are consenting - again the opposite of what a rapist does.

gonetoseeamanaboutadog

to make a sweeping comment 'these posts remind me of the way a rapist works ironically' when some of us who have been raped have commented, actually isn't just offensive it's disgraceful. Comparing us to our rapists shows how ignorant you are. Reported.

Ah gone, that is not it at all. I am sorry you are suffering and I hope you find ease. When I said I was pissed off, I just said I was pissed off. That is not a dire warning. It is a healthy emotional expression. That's all. No more no less. I hope you find ease. People disagreeing with you online is not like rape. Take care.

And experience is not opinion or a view to be held or agreed or disagreed with. It is experience. And we are each our own principal witnesses. You too. And this seems as though it may be a painful and threatening thread for you as you have reacted by comparing people who have survived rape to rapists.

I have not seen Gonetosee apologise for rape.
She has certainly not alleged that Brock Turner is not a rapist.

She has explained how a person may not have been happy even when they consented to sex because of expectations, lack of self -confidence or any number of reasons. That is not an apology for rape. That is a complicated issue and really worth discussing, though maybe better on another thread. It is worth discussing because a great deal of unhappiness might be prevented if people understood the complexities better.

Gonetosee has been describing in my opinion how rape is bad; but how there are also difficult transactions which may arise within sexual exchanges that could leave people unhappy, for many reasons; and in some cases possibly feeling coerced - even when when rape has not occurred or when the coercer was unaware that he/she had put the person under pressure.

Has anyone answered whether her male friend was raped or coerced? No one answered me about would it be Ok if that footballer had seduced a consenting sixteen year old instead of a fifteen year old? (not rape is she'd been sixteen - she said she wanted the tea)

In my opinion, GTSAMAD has also not made light of the horrific rapes others here have experienced just because she has shown how a constellation of certain dynamics can be grouped around a certain poster on a thread in a way that shows similarities to a person being singled out, attacked and diminished.

This is the article written by someone who has researched US Campus rapes. The link did not work before.

www.theatlantic.com/education/archive/2015/08/what-makes-a-campus-rape-prone/402065/

Has anyone answered whether her male friend was raped or coerced? No one answered me about would it be Ok if that footballer had seduced a consenting sixteen year old instead of a fifteen year old? (not rape is she'd been sixteen - she said she wanted the tea)

No one is obliged to answer ant random Q posed here.

In the first instance the man concerned does not consider he has been raped.
As feminists are repeatedly told not to tell people when they are being victimized, or when they should feel afraid, that would appear be a trick question.
Which is possibly why it has been ignored.

Maybe it is because the question is too complicated and rape is simple.

The question also smelt of "What about the men" which is a common distraction tactic.

It also has too little context. Like, did the girl have a history of throwing temper tantrums at the slightest implication that she's not attractive? Have women in general a history of killing men who tell them they're not attractive?

It is absolutely possible that this guy made the informed decision to have sex with her so she would feel better and then in retrospect thinks it was not such a good idea. Only he knows.

tbh, I suspect she may have made it up, kinddog I'm going to say this kindly, but I think she may be slightly troubled, and I hope she can find peace. Her posts suggest that to me - followed by the fact that she called some of us "like rapists" when, erm, we're speaking out against rapists. All of them. Even those that have swimming medals.

Ted Poe, a 67 yr old US Republican get's it - now IME white male Republicans are not renowned for their feminism. But he get's it. It's not difficult.

This, absolutely.

And not all opinions are valid, sorry. If your opinion is that consent is too complicated for anybody to understand, so nobody can ever know whether a rape happened or not, that is not a valid opinion. It doesn't become valid just because it is expressed by a woman.

Rape is a crime. Something that is a crime is something that can easily be understood and avoided by everyone. There is no such thing as a crime that is impossible to understand and impossible for innocent people to avoid, on grounds that it is impossible to know where the boundaries are unless you have a degree in advanced psychology. If crimes were that complicated to figure out we would all be in prison.

Do not kill. Do not steal. Do not rape. Simples.

"In my opinion, GTSAMAD has also not made light of the horrific rapes others here have experienced just because she has shown how a constellation of certain dynamics can be grouped around a certain poster on a thread in a way that shows similarities to a person being singled out, attacked and diminished."

No, sorry. People respond as they respond. We are entering a time when history is eating itself and where anyone who expresses an opinion, particularly emotionally, is seen as "singling out" or "attacking" or "diminishing" another person just by virtue of speaking. People write from their own experience and perspectives. This is true for all of us at all times, irregardless of dynamics.

You assume here that the issue is that Gone has mentioned grey areas. I mentioned grey areas very early on, I think there can be grey areas with younger people. However, it's really off base in terms of this case.

The part I found myself reacting to with Gone's posts was this idea that two people in close intimate contact have no way of reading one another's intentions. Of course we can't read thoughts, but we have highly developed biopsychosocial learning abilities that mean that in the absence of neurological trauma or certain disorders of social relationship, we really can AND DO have means of "reading" intention and connection, even in the dark, even with our eyes closed and especially in the context of sexual intimacy.

Saying that is not attacking or diminishing anyone. Responding to the idea that these normal human (not male, not female) abilities are a sign of a particularly understanding or intuitive partner by saying it pisses me off and feels like there is a bit of rape apologising going on is not attacking or diminishing someone who cares not one particle about how I feel. We all need to be a little bit more robust about all of this if there is to progress so that women don't end up with the sorts of experiences that cause them lifelong harm, whatever words they choose to use to describe those.

Gone has also been fairly selective and not always maintaining a coherent line of argument. That usually inspires frustration in people.

As for the male partner, I don't understand what happened, it doesn't make sense to me. It sounds like regrettable sex rather than coercion with the details given but there isn't enough context. I do think sexual violence and coercion doesn't have to be gendered but I also know that given the nature of our biological selves, it is typically more difficult for men to maintain an erection if they feel their lives and selves are being threatened in any way so it is more complex than the details here.