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AIBU?

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"Rape...is not caused by rapists" WTF!?!

649 replies

Unacceptable · 08/06/2016 10:50

If you aren't aware of the rapist Brock Turner and the campaigners who think he's getting a hard time, have a read of this guardian link.

AIBU to think that the statement from Leslie Rassmussen decrying political correctness that harms poor boys like Brock is the dumbest piece of shit I've ever read?

Even in their drunkest, most ridiculous states my Husband, Brothers and adult sons would not rape a woman because, and I'm sure Leslie wouldn't want to entertain this notion, they wouldn't rape somebody because they aren't rapists!!!!

Brock clearly is.
Having sex without consent is rape.
Forcing yourself upon an unconscious person is rape.

You don't have to be a stranger in a dark alley to do that, just your normal, average, everyday twat.

I know it is hard to accept the wrongdoings of a loved one.
I know we'd all fight to protect those we care about but you can still fucking accept the mistakes that people make...even if you can't get your head around it, don't bury your head in the sand and pretend it's less of an abuse because 'he's a nice guy'.
When will people wake the fuck up?

Link: gu.com/p/4kk46/stw

OP posts:
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8
kawliga · 11/06/2016 06:59

*'Would you like a cup of tea?'
'No thanks'
'Oh, go on! I made it specially. It's very nice tea. I bought it for you specially. It is tea time. Everyone else is having some. You'll be the odd one out. I'm sure you'd you like it'.
'Oh, okay. I'll have some then. Just a small cup."

With a cup of tea that is OK.*

Um, no, that is not OK at all. I find that very disturbing, that people think this is ok. It is creepy and disrespectful especially with the guilt trip 'I made it specially' and the implied put-down 'you'll be the odd one out' and the dismissing the person's view 'I'm sure you'll like it'.

kawliga · 11/06/2016 07:08

By the way, on good children raised to be polite and not cause a fuss, I try to raise my dd this way, but also I respect it when she says 'no' to anything. Hopefully that teaches her that when she says 'no' good people will hear that and not try to persuade her out of it. Just adding to the point about saying no to a cuppa.

Though it is so sad that we are even having this discussion when the victim in this case was unconscious. It should be a clear case. Also sad to see the victim statements posted upthread Sad reading these, it is as if rape isn't a crime at all. Short sentences or even no convictions at all.

TheSparrowhawk · 11/06/2016 07:36

'Surely it's possible that there are men who think they'd never be rapists because they would always stop the moment they heard the word 'no', like the campaigns said men are supposed to, not realising that there are other scenarios in which women may start off half-heartedly going along with things and end up enduring them, all without necessarily physically resisting?'

They may think they'd never be rapists, but who cares? They are rapists if they are in situations where they have in some way manipulated a woman into having sex she doesn't want. Whether they believe they're rapists or not is entirely irrelevant. Being unaware a crime has been committed (say if I accidentally steal something because someone told me it was ok) doesn't negate any other crime. It's a mitigating circumstance, yes, but it doesn't mean a crime hasn't been committed.

Do normal, polite, kind people really badger people into drinking a cup of tea?

TheSparrowhawk · 11/06/2016 07:42

Gone, I am very reluctant to discuss your sex life here in case you're not comfortable with that, but your statement here:

'As for people being hardwired to 'know' what their partners are thinking and if they're not into it - I think we must be on different planets. My DH is taller than I am - making eye contact would be very tricky. Not unusual. It's often dark when we have sex. Not unusual. I don't always move very much. Not unusual. Once, he was shocked to find me in tears at the end of sex. I was keyed up about something, doing that thinking-of-two-things-at-once thing that women do, and had burst into tears about it at the wrong moment. But I was also perfectly (albeit not very passionately) up for having sex. I just got distracted and he hadn't noticed. I don't think he's unusual either.'

is really really worrying. There is absolutely no way on earth my DH would fail to notice I was crying during sex. If I even sigh or look a bit put off he always asks straight away 'are you ok?' He constantly looks at my face, kisses me, listens to what sounds I'm making (TMI!) etc and is very very aware of how I'm feeling. Any signal that I'm not into it totally puts him off. There have been a few times when I've 'gone along' with sex and he's seen I'm not into it and just stopped - he just cannot have sex if he's in any way aware that I'm not enjoying it. My enjoyment is a huge part of his enjoyment. The fact that you say you and your DH don't make eye contact and you make very little indication of how you're feeling, to the point where you can cry and he won't notice is really really worrying.

KindDogsTail · 11/06/2016 08:14

Senpal
I know I can persuade my partner to have sex, because at the end of the day he can decide that he simply isn't in the mood and I won't hold it against him, and vice versa

But the Have a Cup of Tea video is not aimed in my opinion at adult people like you in the consenting, established relationship you are in with your partner.

It is presumably to teach very young people, rather than adults who are already in a relationship like you are, about consent.

The sort of consent the young person hypothetically involved in a sexual exchange needs to give should be absolutely enthusiastic and unequivocal.
Or vice versa, the person initiating the sex needs to see that the person they want to have sex with is enthusiastically consenting, not wavering and being polite.

As I have said before, the Have a Cup of Tea scene is just not the right one for illustrating it - however well meant. This is especially the case for people like me who were brought up to be quite literally polite at a real tea party - and that is typical.

Given that willingness to please and be polite is exactly what stops girls from vehemently stopping people who are intruding on their boundaries, the symbolical subject chosen (cups of tea) could not be worse for the intended lesson.

The video does not teach polite people to say No I damm well don't want your stupid tea. How dare you give me that tea. No, No NO NO take it away

There are so many girls who might have been at this sort of tea party:

She is kissing a boy. The next thing he starts doing something more. The girl says 'No'. He carries on. She shuts down. He thinks he has consent and carries on.

TheSparrowhawk · 11/06/2016 08:16

'He thinks he has consent and carries on.'

Does he really think he has consent? Are men, no matter how young, really that bad at seeing when a person isn't entirely comfortable?

kawliga · 11/06/2016 08:41

The tea analogy is not about being polite to your hostess at a tea party and saying 'yes, please, the crumpets are delicious' when really the crumpets have horrid little air holes that creep you out but you just eat them with a fake smile and do your best to be polite as your mother taught you.

It is a very simple analogy about the every day experience of being offered a drink. The minute you try to make the analogy into something complex (tea party?? I don't think young people today even go to tea parties) then it defeats the point. I think the tea analogy is very easy to understand if you don't try to complexitize it.

Also, I think some people are vested in insisting that consent is a very complex thing that hardly anybody understands so nobody can be blamed for being a rapist, after all how could they know whether there was consent or not - for such people no analogy, no explanation, no reasoning, no common sense, will ever be enough.

See, even in this case with an unconscious victim, there were still some posters saying well, it's complicated, maybe he didn't know she hadn't consented because she passed out before he quite figured out whether it was yes or no (in his drunken haze, you see).

KindDogsTail · 11/06/2016 08:41

The Dowager
So, continually saying no to someone offering sex can actually hurt the offerer's feelings in a way that saying no to tea never would

That is true.
And tea aside, not wanting to hurts someones feelings is what pushy people manipulate a lot.

Kawliga
Um, no, that is not OK at all. (being pushed into having the tea)
Of course I agree, but that happens all the time with tea, drinks, food and it is in fact accepted as part of ordinary life. My worry is transferring that acceptance to sex.

ThumbWitches that Judgment in that case you linked that it wasn't really murder because she was indeed a prostitute was appalling!

KindDogsTail · 11/06/2016 08:47

Mimishimmi what happened when you were eight was horrible. Imagine the police doing nothing, I wonder of they would now.

KindDogsTail · 11/06/2016 08:48

tea party?? I don't think young people today even go to tea parties

Lets call it a drinks party at a university.
Now it's really getting more complicated and more realistic.

kawliga · 11/06/2016 08:54

Of course I agree, but that happens all the time with tea, drinks, food and it is in fact accepted as part of ordinary life.

I don't agree that it happens all the time. If you are trying to be polite when you go to somebody's house and accept the drink/food offered just to be polite, yes, that happens all the time but it's not relevant to this issue.

The relevant scenario is where you say 'no, thank you' and the hostess says 'no, really, I went to such trouble' and you say 'I'm not really hungry, thank you'(or even where you give up with the words but you are getting sicker by the minute and showing great reluctance, or you froze, or started crying, or whatever you did but did not show any enthusiasm) and the hostess says 'oh, you must, because I went to the trouble, you will be the odd one out if you don't eat, go on, you will really like it, I promise' and then starts shoving the food down your throat, then that would be creepy and weird and no, this is not how most people behave.

I can't believe we're actually debating this, as if it's as complex as nuclear physics. I think most people know how to behave in offering/accepting drinks, and also know how not to rape other people. It's not really rocket science.

Felascloak · 11/06/2016 09:00

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kawliga · 11/06/2016 09:04

Lets call it a drinks party at a university. Now it's really getting more complicated and more realistic.

Well, bollocks to that. I agree with the young man at Warwick Uni who said he does not need any special training to know how to behave at a drinks party at university and how to ensure that he does not rape anybody. He knows how to be respectful of his fellow human beings and although his parents never said to him 'YOU MUST NOT RAPE GIRLS' they taught him basic kindness and decency. So he does not need special seminars to teach him how to 'read' and 'interpret' whether a girl wants to have sex or not because of how complex the whole thing is.

Would you go pouring drinks down somebody's throat by force or because they are passed out or because you didn't quite hear whether that was a 'yes' or 'no' and it's all very complicated? I think any decent person knows the answer to that.

KindDogsTail · 11/06/2016 09:24

Kawliga
Persuasion goes on all the time in ordinary life and it is relevant to this issue because it is how young people, often girls, find themselves in a position in which it is difficult for them to be adequately assertive in such a way as they actually listened to.

I described the tea persuasion in an exaggerated way to make it clear. The persuasion can be done with just a look.
Even that is not necessary in a real social situation to do with eating/drinking. I have certainly eaten and drunk things I did not want out of politeness and without even saying anything like no thanks. So for me the tea/sex analogy is worrying.

Now, thinking about this, it makes me wonder about how much we persuade and manipulate very young children to do what we think is best. It is for very good reasons, but there must be a fine line over which it could be teaching them the wrong response - setting them up to be push-overs.

I can't believe we're actually debating this, as if it's as complex as nuclear physics. I think most people know how to behave in offering/accepting drinks, and also know how not to rape other people. It's not really rocket science

Nuclear science/students other are committing acts of alleged rape in universities and often getting acquitted so something is very wrong and something is hard to understand.

Then are the older men like that footballer with that fifteen year old. He was charged because of her age, but what if she'd been sixteen. It still would not have been all right if he had persuaded her even if it had been legal.

Enthusiastic heartfelt, sober consent, without any form of coercion including through being older has to be the way to go.

mimishimmi · 11/06/2016 09:38

It's not a problem of boys having to be taught that they need total consent. Of course nice families teach their boys that and always have. It's quite likely that he, and others like him, have grown up in a socio-cultural atmosphere which promotes the slut/madonna paradigm, the vast majority of the 'unwashed' being viewed as the former. I knew a few that were being raised like that ...these people are often scarily wealthy and powerful.

kawliga · 11/06/2016 09:45

Persuasion, where the person being persuaded is saying no, is reluctant, is uncomfortable, is feeling under pressure, and maybe is even crying - that is very wrong. Whether it's a drink or tea or sex or whatever it is. I cannot believe that most people would find it acceptable to put pressure on others in this unkind way regardless of what the issue is they are trying to persuade somebody about. Nobody persuades somebody else to the point of misery, unless they do not mean well to that person.

I don't teach my dd to be 'assertive', but I do respect her 'no, thank you' and it is important to me that she should become used to her 'no' being accepted and not have me trying to persuade her out of it. I don't do persuading her to eat. Most parents these days don't force dc to eat, so that's why I think the tea example is one that would really resonate with most people.

I honestly think if dd said 'no thank you' to a drink and somebody tried to come at her with a whole host of pressure she would find that weird and surprising - she is used to saying 'no thank you' and that being the end of it.

The point about rapists, though, is that they don't really care about all this, do they Sad They only try to mix it up and blow smoke around the whole issue of consent as a way of avoiding responsibility for their crimes.

gonetoseeamanaboutadog · 11/06/2016 09:46

No, it's not difficult to avoid raping people. Provided that everyone says what they mean and nobody is influenced by cultural expectations and assumptions, there is no reason why it shouldn't be easily avoided. But then there are situations like the one that happened to a good friend of mine, who had sex for the first time purely because the woman made it clear that she expected him to keep going and he, for complicated reasons to do with insecurity and not wanting to cause hurt, didn't feel able to state that he'd rather not.

Since it hadn't occurred to her that he might want to stop, she didn't know he felt coerced. But nevertheless she was coercive and he felt manipulated. His body performed but his mind was wretched. He felt so upset afterwards that he threw up and still can't really talk about it.

Also, I think some people are vested in insisting that consent is a very complex thing that hardly anybody understands so nobody can be blamed for being a rapist

That's not why I'm interested in thinking it can be complex. I can't see why any woman would want to get a rapist off. If our culture understood that consent can be complex, we might be able to raise our expectations of men. Simplifying things right down to 'no means no' lets a lot of coercion go on under the radar and I'm not sure all of it is consciously perpetrated by the male individuals in question, because our culture is so messed up to start with. A first step to untangling things might be an acknowledgement that any shared decision can be complex.

At the moment, it seems like the best we can do is to insist on men's immediate acceptance if we say no to tea. A better understanding of consent might lead to wider definitions of rape - for example, we have discussed that it's sometimes coercive to even offer a cup of tea to someone who is no fit state to refuse it, or who has already made it obvious they don't want it.

I feel it's a also a big issue that some women don't feel able to refuse tea, especially if someone has gone to the trouble of putting the kettle on, as it were. She may not feel able to refuse because she has been consciously manipulated into a situation in which she won't feel able to refuse, in which case the man is being coercive and his actions should be part of our conversation about rape. But that is much too complex for the tea analogy. Or he may have nothing to do with her reluctance to refuse tea and her feelings are down to something else entirely. It may be that even if he asked a straight question, she would not have felt able to refuse. In those circumstances, he is not guilty of trying to get her into those circumstances but he would still be having sex with someone who doesn't want it and doesn't feel able to say so. She may (accurately) define it as rape but I'm not sure that it would make him a rapist.

Yes sparrowhawk I absolutely do think that there are men out there who would recognise resistance but genuinely can't always pick up on a lack of enthusiasm. Perhaps that's because I come from a straight-laced culture where men are expected to take the lead and women aren't necessarily expected to contribute much. Combine that with a perceived cultural expectation by men that women expect them to keep going unless asked to stop and perhaps a woman who doesn't feel able to say she wants to stop for reasons that are more to do with the culture than any specific man, and you have a sorry mess.

In response to your question about my sex life, I appreciate your concern but genuinely don't think there is a problem. The incident I described was indeed an example of spectacularly bad communication which is why I still remember it. My DH is like yours in hating the thought that I mightn't be keen, hence his shocked reaction to my tears. I find it hard to think of nothing else, even if I'm really enjoying sex and don't think this is unusual. Sometimes we're in tune with each other, sometimes not so much and we do work on that.

gonetoseeamanaboutadog · 11/06/2016 09:53

felascloak Thank you for your concern, please see my last post. I've reported your post because this thread has not gone 'rape apologist'.

kawliga · 11/06/2016 09:53

socio-cultural atmosphere which promotes the slut/madonna paradigm, the vast majority of the 'unwashed' being viewed as the former. I knew a few that were being raised like that ...these people are often scarily wealthy and powerful

This, absolutely. Rapists have simply felt entitled to do what they did. Unfortunately for them, the police are now involved. Oh dear, what can they do to avoid the rap, hmm... oh, they can say the girl consented. That will mix it up, after all, the prosecution has to prove beyond reasonable doubt that there was no consent. Proving the absence of anything is always going to be difficult. It becomes he said/she said.

kawliga · 11/06/2016 10:09

At the moment, it seems like the best we can do is to insist on men's immediate acceptance if we say no to tea.

Not sure what you mean by 'immediate acceptance' Confused

girl: Fuck off, don't kiss me
boy (immediately): I accept!

Or do you mean he might carry on kissing her for a few more moments, as his acceptance was not immediate? Saying 'no' does not require an 'acceptance' from the other side.

fusionconfusion · 11/06/2016 10:10

"Are men, no matter how young, really that bad at seeing when a person isn't entirely comfortable?"

Absolutely not. And this is the craziness of our current world. Really human decency is not gendered, and human decency involves acting in sexually ethical ways and not prioritising your own sexual pleasure over that of another human being. Humans have sex with humans. We live in a world where predominantly the humans having sex with humans are male and female but as a queer woman, I've had sex with both and human decency and sexual sovereignty and consent are not JUST an issue in heterosexual relationships or ones where there is a penis involved.

One of the things I really have found great about this case is that this man did not rape this woman with his penis and yet we are calling him a rapist.. while I know that it will never happen in my lifetime that female-female coercion/abuse/sexual violation will be called "rape", really there is nothing about "men" that means that they need to have sex in ways that degrade others.

We are all caught up in language as though what it points to is real..but even when you look at a table, it's not "real" in the way our senses perceive it, it's energy vibrating at a certain intensity in terms of quantum physics. We all get caught in this idea of what "men" do - I'm in another discussion somewhere where people are talking about how "men" have huge problems with being "empathetic" and yet nearly all the men I've had in my adult life have NO problem with being empathetic, responsive, caring, kind, connected. It's just a bullshit social narrative to say that men have to have their end away and override a woman's wishes in a disconnected or degrading way.

At the same time I do think very young people can fuck this up with lack of experience.. but there are lines and people usually know when they are crossed. When women are having sex where they are not with a man who is responsive and kind and attuned to them they are not really having sexual intimacy at all, they are just acting like a blow up doll. And our society makes TOO MANY WOMEN see that as acceptable.

LurcioAgain · 11/06/2016 10:21

Kwaliga - spot on about men being able to communicate/understand perfectly well. There's a great chapter on this in Deborah Cameron's Myth of Mars and Venus. She points out that the "misunderstood signals" thing is rubbish - we are all of us, of both sexes, complex social animals. There are different social protocols in different societies - for example some societies are more direct than others (I've had fascinating conversations with colleagues from other cultures about this), but if we take ours as an example, it is very unusual to turn something down with a blunt no. A colleague invites you for a drink after work, you don't say "no, piss off", you way "I'd love to but I have to get home." Both sexes understand this, both sexes use this sort of round about way of talking. So at a party, a bloke chats you up... typically you say (if he's not already creeped you out by words or gestures) "that's very flattering, but no thanks...." or some variation on this. He understands (and has probably used) the polite refusal for drinks - damn certain he understands the polite refusal in the context of sex too, and if he carries on, it's because he's pretending not to understand, because it suits him to do so, because he wants to coerce you into doing something you don't want to do.

Fusion - it's worth pointing out that there are variations world wide on the legal definition of rape. In the UK it is specifically penetration by a penis, in many US states it is penetration by a penis, object, finger... So it may well be (I don't know the details of the law in Stanford) that it was legally counted as rape there. I certainly agree that morally it is rape.

VestalVirgin · 11/06/2016 10:21

@Kind: Persuasion goes on all the time in ordinary life and it is relevant to this issue because it is how young people, often girls, find themselves in a position in which it is difficult for them to be adequately assertive in such a way as they actually listened to.

I still don't think men need any education about "how to get consent".

Nice old ladies who insist that you have another cup of tea, another piece of cake, are annoying, but they do it assuming that you WANT to eat another piece of cake. That eating is enjoyable for you. There is a logic in this, because for most of human history, most people had not enough to eat, and apart from some few conditions, eating does not harm people. Ever.

So. There is that.

Rapists do NOT assume that their brand of "sex" is good for a woman. They know, in fact, that this is not the case. They know it leads to unwanted pregnancy and STDs and that they have to "get" women to have sex with them.
They to most assuredly NOT assume that a woman who says no to sex with them is just being polite.

So. The only reason to introduce "consent classes" is to teach girls how to spot a rapist, and to make sure that rapists cannot claim to not have known that their victim didn't consent. I don't think it does much to stop rape that wouldn't be achieved by other ways of telling rapists that we KNOW what they are doing and WILL judge them.

gonetoseeamanaboutadog · 11/06/2016 10:25

fusion Don't you think that men are influenced by their experiences of being with women who are acting like blow up dolls (possibly because of wrongs perpetrated by other men)? Surely their understanding of what is normal women's behaviour and what is sexual intimacy could be influenced by this? A woman who is acting like a blow up doll is not articulating her needs and may not be expressing clearly (to someone who knows nothing but sex with a blow up doll) that she isn't happy. She may not even have articulated to herself that she isn't happy at this point.

I agree that usually people know. But sometimes they may not and your last paragraph would seem to support that idea.

gonetoseeamanaboutadog · 11/06/2016 10:26

kaw

I mean we insist that men immediately accept our refusal of their offer of a cup of tea.

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