"Rape...is not caused by rapists" WTF!?!

[Unacceptable]

If you aren't aware of the rapist Brock Turner and the campaigners who think he's getting a hard time, have a read of this guardian link.

AIBU to think that the statement from Leslie Rassmussen decrying political correctness that harms poor boys like Brock is the dumbest piece of shit I've ever read?

Even in their drunkest, most ridiculous states my Husband, Brothers and adult sons would not rape a woman because, and I'm sure Leslie wouldn't want to entertain this notion, they wouldn't rape somebody because they aren't rapists!!!!

Brock clearly is.
Having sex without consent is rape.
Forcing yourself upon an unconscious person is rape.

You don't have to be a stranger in a dark alley to do that, just your normal, average, everyday twat.

I know it is hard to accept the wrongdoings of a loved one.
I know we'd all fight to protect those we care about but you can still fucking accept the mistakes that people make...even if you can't get your head around it, don't bury your head in the sand and pretend it's less of an abuse because 'he's a nice guy'.
When will people wake the fuck up?

Link: gu.com/p/4kk46/stw

he is gifted in his ability to understand very complicated subject matter.

If that's the case, then how could he not have understood that a woman who is unconscious does, by default, not consent to his touching her, and that 99% of women would under no circumstances consent to pine needles in their vaginas?

This is ridiculous. If he's so damn clever, then he knew exactly what he was doing, and should be punished the harder.

I believe that if there is a grey area it isn't where two people are enthusiastically tearing each other's clothes off.

It's where one partner isn't doing anything very much. In a LTR you might be able to assess that she was stretched out in absolute bliss like the last seven times; with a stranger you'd have to stop and check she was ok. And not unconscious.

Gone, this isn't the first thread where you've stretched to find reasons to hold victims partly responsible

Yep.

I'm not engaging with this particular GF again

he is gifted in his ability to understand very complicated subject matter.
If that's the case, then how could he not have understood that a woman who is unconscious does, by default, not consent to his touching her, and that 99% of women would under no circumstances consent to pine needles in their vaginas?
This is ridiculous. If he's so damn clever, then he knew exactly what he was doing, and should be punished the harder

it was the demon liquor, your honour

I can't do links but the open letter written to the young woman in this case is worth a read

Sorry written by Joe Biden

Detestable I was reminded on another thread that it's bad form to bring up other threads - something I am trying to remember and suggest you do as well. I also find the suggestion that I'm trying to blame the victim offensive. I'm not blaming her at all and clarified that victims are in no way to blame for other people's choices. I said I wished people would consider that there may well be someone like Brock in the room but they are morally free to make whatever choices they want to. You have the freedom to interpret that however you choose but I strongly disagree that this is blaming the victim and will ask for the post in which you accuse me of this to be removed.

I don't agree with you greenwood. Rape charges begin with a reported rape; sex without consent. Sometimes, as in this instance, the circumstances are very clear. There are witnesses. Evidence. The consent issue is only relevant insofar as it's a non-issue: there couldn't possibly have been any, given that the victim was unconscious. In such a case as this, it's easy for us to pinpoint how Brock should have acted and what he should not have done - all of it, right up to the rape. It's clear that Brock was acting as a predator for some time during the evening, imposing himself on other women before he 'picked off' the victim. There's evidence that he dragged her and eye witnesses to the assault. It's cut and dried, or it should have been. It's not always like that. We've heard on this thread about women who have mulled over an incident for many years before realising that they were a victim of rape. If they were screaming and pushing the rapist away, it would be unlikely to take twenty years for them to realise they hadn't been involved in a consensual act.

I disagree with your perception that other women's experiences are not relevant to conversations around giving consent unless they have been raped themselves. Giving consent is something that we all have to do, men as well as women. Working out appropriate ways to seek and give consent is something that we all can and should contribute to.

I used to have an older friend who talked about men who 'took advantage' of younger women by seducing them. Men who wouldn't have identified as rapists but who nevertheless chose women who would be psychologically easy to manipulate into consenting to sex. Do we have a technical term for men like these, who wouldn't force the act of sex on a resisting woman, but who are still clearly predators, choosing victims on the basis of how easy it would be to break down their defences?

I do think there is enthusiastic, freely consensual sex and there is rape and there is room for various forms of exploitation and distortion in between, all of which should be clarified.

Gone, just to focus on one part of your post:

'I have known many girls who have seen sexual encounters as a necessary evil that I very much doubt they either encouraged or actually tried to stop. For many young women who think it's the only way to 'keep a man', sex is often not a happy, enthusiastic business at all but this doesn't mean it isn't consensual.'

If the girl 'actually tried to stop' the sexual encounter and the encounter went ahead anyway, then that is most definitely not consensual. It is rape.

Yes agreed.

Consent - not rape.

No consent - rape.

Fourteen no's and then a grudging yes? - coercion. Rape.

There is no grey area. None.

The latest

www.cbsnews.com/news/brock-turner-sex-assault-case-supporters-apologize-letters-judge-sentence/

Vice President Biden's letter

www.buzzfeed.com/tomnamako/joe-biden-writes-an-open-letter-to-stanford-survivor?utm_term=.xxZVWW5jW#.dbPonn9Mn

abcnews.go.com/US/stanford-swimmer-exhibited-behavior-prior-sex-assault-prosecutors/story?id=39707680

ABC news from yesterday. Lots of evidence of drinking & drug use by the poor innocent small town boy prior to his arrival at Stanford, and some very creepy behaviour towards women before the night in question.

I suspect his appeal is not going to go well

Leslie Rasmussen is in a band with her sisters ("Good English" - ha!) & they have lost several bookings over her letter.

Amazing - thank god for Biden!

I disagree with your perception that other women's experiences are not relevant to conversations around giving consent unless they have been raped themselves.

I didn't say "other women's experiences" were irrelevant, I said your experience of 'going along with it' is not relevant to this case - because in this case, the victim did not 'go along with it' - she could not, she was unconscious. She was not conscious to make a decision to 'go along with it.' Women who make a decision to 'go along with it' are conscious - by definition.

There really is no grey area here.

gonetoseeamanaboutadog.
I was actually interested by what you said here because I felt you were very eloquent in describing what can happen sexually to young girls in a way that resonated with what I have seen or experienced.

Very sadly, I have known many girls who have seen sexual encounters as a necessary evil that I very much doubt they either encouraged or actually tried to stop. For many young women who think it's the only way to 'keep a man', sex is often not a happy, enthusiastic business at all but this doesn't mean it isn't consensual

I too, however, was concerned to think that in saying this you were suggesting there was something grey in the Standford case, but think you made it clear further down the thread that you do indeed consider what Brock Turner did to be rape:

I do think there is enthusiastic, freely consensual sex and there is rape and there is room for various forms of exploitation and distortion in between, all of which should be clarified

in my opinion those predatory, manipulate men you went on to described are horrific too, even though the law doesn't consider them so. I agree these interactions ought to be clarified more, at the very least to make women more aware and less accepting.

I wish I could read through this whole thread but I'm so angry after about ten posts that I've had to stop. Just disgusting. "20 minutes of action" ?!?!!!!! Urgh feel sick. No words can come out of my mouth that aren't rude after reading that so I'm going to shut up.

I am not sure if anyone has posted this yet or not. It is response to Brock's father written by a pastor on his blog page.

johnpavlovitz.com/2016/06/06/to-brock-turners-father-from-another-father/

There is no way on earth Turner could sue for being called a rapist. He would have to prove that it has caused damage to his reputation or, to use a well-worn legal phrase, that it has lowered him in the minds of right-thinking men and women. His reputation is at rock bottom because of what he has been convicted of and the dreadful attitudes demonstrated in his witness statement. It would be near-impossible to damage it any further.

Thanks kinddogs - you are kind.

well

Fourteen no's and then a grudging yes? - coercion. Rape.
There is no grey area. None.

So one no and a grudging yes is - what? Or two no's and a grudging yes? Not trying to oversimplify things but I think the question has to be asked. Personally I don't think men should be trying to persuade women to have sex at all but the world being what it is, they will probably continue to do so. So it would be helpful to know what constitutes coercion in the 'fourteen nos' scenario and what is 'fine and consensual'.

In my heart of hearts, I don't think there is a grey area so much as, for outlying situations, a need for a case-by-case approach in which the complexities of each individual situation would have to be weighed up by a jury. But clearly the results of that need to infiltrate our culture for anything to change.

Deeply ironic that the rapist, Brock Turner's father describes it as '20 minutes of action', of all words.

When one half of the couple was unconscious, immobile, and completely inactive.

There's been huge criticism and backlash over his use of the word "action". He's apologised now but he doesn't seem to really get it and neither does Brock - I mean volunteering to go to schools and lecture about the dangers of alcohol and the promiscuity that "goes with it". What an absolute joke. Apparently the has father also set up a funding page to assist with fees to help defend Brock. When will this family acknowledge the seriousness of what Brock did and when will Brock actually show remorse for his victim rather than just himself??

Haven't RTFT but I found it interesting that the character assessment by the 'scientific' family friend said that he had not found,in his experience, that alcohol will change a genuinely mild mannered person into someone with a criminal disposition. Reading between the lines, I think he was basically saying that Brock was already a little thug but he had to word it very carefully so someone with lesser intelligence (ie Brock's father) thought it looked like he was supporting him. Consensual behind a dumpster? Really?