to remind you all to go and get your smear tests done if they are due or overdue!

[RedCrimson]

8 years ago I had severe dyskaryosis (pre cancerous cells) and was bloody lucky I got it all taken away when I did.

I went for my yearly smear today and the nurse was new to cytology and I was the first smear she's ever done (supervised by my usual nurse).

So I just want to remind you to get yours done if it's due. I very much doubt I'd be here now if I hadn't have gotten the treatment when I did.

" if you choose not to go for screening that is entirely up to you, "

the thing is, we as women are infantilised so much that it actually doesn't seem to be 'up to us'. More like nanny knows best about our vaginas isn't it?

The first smear i went to this vile nurse shoved that cold thing up quite violently, and when i said 'ouch', suggested I had sexual problems.

Look at these kind of experiences that people are reporting, and tell me it is not akin to rape.

When they re not wanting to shove something up, they want to whisk female organs out. massive amounts of hysterectomies have been carried out for NO good reason.

Yet there is still this refusal to believe this is happening and a emphasis on women to somehow 'prove it'. Not the profession and government to provide evidence that cash incentives are not having unintended side effects.

I don't refuse to believe is has happened at all as clearly there are "bad eggs" in every profession. I just don't believe what you have experienced is a universal problem that all people will experience, especially not nowadays when there is so much emphasis for health care professionals on involving patients in decisions and giving them to appropriate information to make decisions, joint decision making, respecting their decisions etc.

I am not in great health and have a lot of experience of hospitals etc. I have and do refuse interventions/screening quite often and I have never felt too pressurised although admittedly I am quite assertive. If I was to the extent you had been I would certainly formally complain in writing -otherwise how will things ever change?

If I was to the extent you had been I would certainly formally complain in writing -otherwise how will things ever change?

You assume that people are either able to complain or feel able to complain or that their complaint will be taken seriously. They feel that they will be judged to be oversensitive or exaggerating or distorting things in someway.

Because the balance of power lies with doctors not patients. It is daunting and distressing to stand up to it to a lot of people. They simply don't feel empowered enough to do so.

These barriers to complaining are something that need to be highlighted and addressed in their own right. The NHS frequently uses the lack of complaints to say there is nothing wrong, when patient feedback from other sources says differently.

In my case, the truth is it has long since passed the timeframe where it is possible to complain. I missed my chance.

Instead I can change the system in other ways. I can point out the problem. I can talk about it and increase awareness. I can say this has happened and it is still happening. I can tell others I believe them. When people talk, others find the confidence to say this also happened to me, when they didn't feel able to before. With the support of a group it is easier to draw attention to an institutionalised problem with the system rather than taking on an individual 'rogue' doctor. Even that idea is wrong, because the same problem for the same reasons is being repeated by GPs across the country. Its not a rogue doctor. Its a problem created by the system.

Which really is what is needed because otherwise, you only deal with a single problem in isolation rather than addressing the heart of the problem and it happening to other people who also feel unable to complain. It is just dealt with as a single isolated complaint.

Not only that, the impact of the system means that the good GPs are also being penalised for behaving ethically which has a financial impact to other patients.

Its also a problem something that's not just restricted to smears.

And yes, I can encourage others to complain when I didn't. And say yes, you do have legitimate grounds to complain which I doubted at the time.

There is more than one way to skin a cat.

the thing is, we as women are infantilised so much that it actually doesn't seem to be 'up to us'. More like nanny knows best about our vaginas isn't it?

True.

I had a gynecologist talk me into letting her do a smear test even though I should have been at almost zero risk at the time.
Still scared she might have infected me with something. Hope she just did it for the money. Not that that makes it any better. (She was a very weird person, but I kinda hope she didn't screw up my reproductive organs, since she also was telling all the women to get pregnant asap, so she can't have planned to infect me with cancer, can she?)

You assume that people are either able to complain or feel able to complain or that their complaint will be taken seriously. They feel that they will be judged to be oversensitive or exaggerating or distorting things in someway.

I don't assume that all people are able to complain but I certainly assume that you are able to complain about the surgery policy (according to the receptionist) in writing which is all you needed to do. You certainly have no problem expressing yourself in writing on an internet forum. All you needed to do was put the complain in writing on the letter to the surgery. They would have been required to investigate if you had done that and confirm in writing whether or not this really was their policy. If they didn't you could have contacted health watch.

You can't assert that a complaint wouldn't be taking seriously if you didn't actually complain in the first place! You did have legitimate grounds to complain at the time I think complaining would have been very effective. On the other hand, complaining on an annonymous internet forum about something that happened at an annonymous surgery is not likely to have any effect.

I haven't had one in years I just can't bring myself to...

I'm not even afraid of the pain or discomfort really. just in was poked and prodded so may times due to a pregnancy that had complications and some of the drs were so rough I honestly can't bear the thought of anyone touching me lile that again. I don't know of it was the gloves or the gel stuff they used but my poor vaginas was so itchy and irritated and bruised from it all.

it took a while to have sex again after I had dd.

but I'm not ready fir drs and nurses to poke around. not yet. I just can't

I am 34 and never had one. It's something that I worry about and know I should have but the longer I leave it the more I worry.

After seeing this thread yesterday I have booked mine for 16th June. Wish me luck!

Mary I didn't complain because I was in my 20s, busy, scatty, just thought to the practice and left it. I had a (for me) traumatic intimate medical procedure when I was a child and for the most part, when I was younger especially, I just disengaged from HCPs. I was basically healthy so figured 'so what if they do de-register me?'

And yes, it can be very hard to get taken seriously! I was recently in hospital with kidney problems. I had not eaten for 3 days or showered. I was woken up by a consultant and 5-6 other people, not introduced, stood around my bed with clipboards. The consultant said 'we've decided to operate'.

Actually, I challenged that (nicely!!!) and asked some questions to be sure I understood what was going on before consenting, but in a scenario like that it's very hard to be assertive.

Later, when I was more compos mentis, I asked the same consultant would he explain if there were any possible complications from that op, however rare, as twice in the past I have experienced very unusual complications from kidney ops

His response was 'Revolting, Revolting, if I tell you about all the possible complications, you'll just start symptom-spotting. Don't worry so much!'

He was a nice guy, but honestly, many drs just don't think of women patients as fully equal people. They are 'problems' to be 'solved', and if the patient doesn't want that solution/ treatment, there is often a lot of insistence and coercion.

I don't assume that all people are able to complain but I certainly assume that you are able to complain about the surgery policy (according to the receptionist) in writing which is all you needed to do. You certainly have no problem expressing yourself in writing on an internet forum.

All you needed to do was put the complain in writing on the letter to the surgery. They would have been required to investigate if you had done that and confirm in writing whether or not this really was their policy. If they didn't you could have contacted health watch.

You can't assert that a complaint wouldn't be taking seriously if you didn't actually complain in the first place! You did have legitimate grounds to complain at the time I think complaining would have been very effective. On the other hand, complaining on an annonymous internet forum about something that happened at an annonymous surgery is not likely to have any effect.

I'm sorry. Do you know me?

How DARE you suggest you say any of that.

You do not know the ins and outs of my life. You do not know how the last 10 years of my life and how I have changed as a person.

And frankly I don't have to justify why I didn't complain to your arrogance little 'its easy' speech. But I will. Because its important. Not for your benefit, but for anyone else reading this and 'gets it' and is open minded enough to realise this might be a real issue. Rather than peddling the narrow minded 'its easy to complain' mantra which is damaging our health care system across the board.

You do not know what has happened in that time to help me be able to express myself on the internet in the way I do. Nor how difficult I have found that at times. Or how many times I've ended up in tears over it. Or how many times I've ended up an absolute wreck trying to change things in my way bit by bit and have hit a brick wall or an come across an ignorant tosser who has got to me.

There is a WORLD of difference between doing some anonymously on the internet and sticking yourself out there on the line directly to someone who has bullied you and belittled you.

I can only do what I do because of the support I have found through MN and the realisation of what happened to me was wholly unethical and was worthy of a complaint.

Its because of the journey I've been through that I now try and increase awareness of the problem. And others.

And above all that. If I as someone who is educated and quite stubborn in my beliefs doesn't feel able to complain, what does that say?

Do you want me to spell lots of things out about mental health support. Things like mental health is not something for the 'educated middle classes' and when you go for help the system doesn't know how to help you because they are set up for people who don't have the luxury of that and are rather baffled whe you don't match their stereotypes and profiles. Or they just treat you as simply stupid. Nor any of the stigma that therefore has as a consequence? Do you? DO YOU?

Go stick your crap and your 'its easy to complain shite'. Its not. Not to a lot of people. That should be respected too. There needs to be a hell of a lot more work to do with regard to patient feedback - and not necessarily through the complaints system.

You are ignorant.

At least I am in a place now, where I know that its you that is wrong and not me. I do the best I can. If that's not good enough you, then that's tough.

RedToothBrush I can see why you might be perceived as "oversensitive or exaggerating or distorting things in someway" That is certainly the impression I get from your last post. I'm not surprised if have a problem getting people to take you seriously in RL.

I'm just back from mine this second.

I was not guilted or coerced into this decision thanks. But it is interesting to have it implied that I have somehow letting the sisterhood down by having it done.

I'm all for women having free choice. But those that advocate this most vehemently only seem to believe that it's only a free choice if it agrees with theirs

Thanks for the reminder. I need to book myself in.

Its free choice.

You have not let anyone down by having one. This 'sisterhood' nonsense is crap anyway.

There is no sisterhood.

Just people who make the decision for themselves.

Thing is you can only make that decision for yourself if you are given factual information to do that in an environment that's not coercive.

If your had that chance and those circumstances that's great. Its good to hear.

I don't see how saying that's not the case for everyone, is somehow suggesting you are a traitor anyway.

I find it funny how supporting free choice is being misinterpreted in this way.

The screening system makes sense on a population level and it is right that if they screen everyone every 3 years they will prevent x amount of cancer.

But people are people and are all individual, leading different lives. So at an individual level it should be their choice as to how to take it up, rather than a one-size-fits-all imposition. They need the correct, balanced information to make the choice, and it should be respected.

I was going to add that this is where the target driven system and the guiting/scaring people falls down. It working against the individual.

RedToothBrush perhaps you should read your posts back. They are extremely strident and aggressive, harranging women who disagree with you. Perhaps that's why I've been made to feel like some mindless idiot for getting my smear done today.

I find it ironic that you are so passionate about choice but you fail to see the irony of you being so aggressive with people who have made a choice that happens to be different to you

bit Honestly, no snarkiness, that's great for you. I genuinely don't see any posts that have suggested we should all resist smear tests

Just, people should assess their own risk and make an individual decision.

I honestly don't think anyone is sneering at anyone who chooses to have screening.

I don't, but I do a lot of other regular health check-ups, like 6 moly dentist appts, kidney blood tests. Those checks are worth it for me because of my particular risk factors. Smears aren't.

That's a calculation every woman should make for herself and I don't think anyone's saying any different.

Hmm okay bit xposts :)

I think Red is hugely knowledgeable about this issue but I also think (if I may say so) she has been thru the wars a bit and that probably shows. for you red

I'm genuinely sorry that that is the case revolting but while she's busy shouting at other MNers "How dare you!" and "You do not know the ins and outs of my life!" she needs to remember that she doesn't know the ins and outs of mine either!

They are extremely strident and aggressive, harranging women who disagree with you. Perhaps that's why I've been made to feel like some mindless idiot for getting my smear done today.

This is because I have been really attacked on the past on threads like this. As in REALLY attacked. Really nasty stuff. Funnily enough, it is only on threads about smears where stating the case for evidence medicine seems to be a problem on Mumsnet. I know why... no one wants to question whether they really have made an informed decision, because to do so is frightening in its implication. For many it IS the right decision. But it needs to be a decision rather than an automatic thing you do, just because, well, that's what you do.

I do try and be measured, but it is difficult at times. Especially in the context unless you make the case strongly it gets shouted down as crackpot. If that is misinterpreted then that's what it is. Misinterpretation. It is not what I'm saying.

I don't have a problem with people disagreeing with me.

I do have a problem with women using language to emotional blackmail others. It needs to be challenged. If you take that as aggression then you really need to read my posts again.

I absolutely believe that my decision is not the same as the next persons. The correct decision is the one you are happy with. That's it. As long as its your decision and your decision alone.

I don't know how many more times I have to repeat that to be honest.

I have repeatedly stressed I am pro-choice not anti-smear.

Everyone is different. There is no sisterhood. There is no right decision.

Be educated. Be free to choose.

BitOutOfPractice Thu 09-Jun-16 15:51:50
I'm genuinely sorry that that is the case revolting but while she's busy shouting at other MNers "How dare you!" and "You do not know the ins and outs of my life!" she needs to remember that she doesn't know the ins and outs of mine either!

I was told in no uncertain terms that I was somehow a liar because I didn't complain because I can articulate an argument therefore it is easy to complain.

This questioning of legitimacy is part of the problem. It is not legitimate unless you complain. You are not believed. It can't be happening. There is no evidence for it. Blah blah blah. Constant belief that if you do not have a smear you are somehow irresponsible or somehow selfish. These constant having to justify for making a decision that's different.

Hell its not even something like anti-vax nonsense. There is a good solid case of evidence here. Supported by respected individuals who promote and believe in evidence based medicine.

I don't know about your life. But then where did I say about your life. Care to point that out?

As I say its about ethics that are missing and free choice not being there and an unwillingness to accept that women are not being treated appropriately.

But yeah, whatever.

I'll continue to piss people off until it changes. Perhaps you would like to do something to support the removal of conflicting interests and targets for GPs...

No one has suggested that women should not be given the choice though RedToothBrush. You on the other hand have aggessively implied that women who have the smear are "infantalised" or not clever enough to weigh up the evidence or not assertive enough to refuse it (ironic considering that you are the one who is not assertive enough to make formal complaint).

I was told in no uncertain terms that I was somehow a liar because I didn't complain because I can articulate an argument therefore it is easy to complain.

I wasn't suggesting you were lying at all. I was pointing out that if you can articulate an argument on the internet you can write a letter of complaint.

I'll continue to piss people off until it changes. Perhaps you would like to do something to support the removal of conflicting interests and targets for GPs...

You are totally deluded if you think ranting and raving on an an annonymous internet forum will result in changes.

Did I attack you? Were you attacked on this thread? I'm also struggling to find the place where you were called a liar but I'm sure you'll correct me if I'm wrong

So, yeah, whatever yourself! FWIW that phrase particularly riles me since I find it is totally dismissive of anyone else's opinions or their right to hold them. Which I thought was the basic tenet of your argument. It's so patronising. It was my exH's favourite way of dismissing my opinions and does your argument no favours. Neither does your aggression sadly.