Another buggy in wheelchair space thread

[MsAR]

I got on the bus at the same time as a wheelchair user was queuing to do so. The driver told the wheelchair user there wasn't room, so I quickly checked and saw it was a buggy and a shopping trolley in the space.

The driver told the wheelchair user there would be another bus in a few minutes and they didn't seem to mind and weren't particularly insistent about getting on.

Was I being unreasonable to step in at this point and tell the driver that the person with the buggy should get off as wheelchairs have priority? He was pretty annoyed when I did, and kept repeating that there wasn't space.

I'm in London, and there are clear signs on every bus stating this is the case. I've often had to get off a bus when a wheelchair needed to get on and would never question if asked to do so.

Would it also be unreasonable for me to complain to TFL? I know I'm being a busy body but the driver's attitude really irritated me! I'd like the mumsnet jury to help me decide what to do, if anything.

I was commenting on same post as Needa there.

I don't think you were unreasonable at all OP. There really needs to be a culture change with regard to these spaces and that won't happen until people stand up and say something.

Far too many people seem to see these spaces as pushchair spaces, rather than a space that is available to park a pushchair should a wheelchair user not be using it.

For those saying that the wheelchair user was fine with the situation, how many times in a day do you imagine they have to deal with this sort of shit? It must be soul destroying to be constantly fighting for your right use a space designated to you. I can well imagine people often just let it go rather than have another argument, it doesn't mean that they're alright with it and it doesn't make it right.

Op I'm a wheelchair user I would have loved you to just ask like you did. I can't speak I use communication aid but that's no good if I'm stuck miles away from the driver. I here on London the disabled ramps come out on the middle of bus so no eye contact or ability to talk to the driver anyway.

Yes the wheelchair might have been fine but I can tell nothing moral demoralising to try get on bus pushchair user does nothing and not one single person on bus even offers you smile for support. Never mind argues your case. Like I said I don't even attempt buses any more I rarely go out. But nothing wrong you offering.

I will always say wheelchair over buggy simply because you choose to have a child you do not choose to be in a wheelchair.

OP I had a chat with someone who was helping the appeal against that original decision
It does help when joe public complains so do
It's quite true, as a pp said, that some just lose the will to argue
Taxi access for wheelchair users is getting worse because of cycle lanes as well
Much better chance of getting better accessibility if more people push Tfl.

Perhaps the wheelchair thought they were likely to get lots of moaning and filthy looks from the buggy owner and didn't want to go through that yet again.

I am often on the bus outside the hospital and it's not unusual to have a second wheelchair user attempting to board the bus. It happened the other day...the bus driver was very quick to say no as the space was full with a wheelchair but we were able to help the lady fold her chair and help her onto the bus.

YABU in expecting someone to have to get off the bus completely a sense yes, then again I've travelled on London transport and know how busy it gets. But you are totally not being unreasonable to expect a person to be able to do what a wheelchair user can not do. Fold the buggy up and make space for the wheelchair.

I would put a complaint in against the driver definitely, his attitude was uncalled for. Where I am, it is at the drivers discretion whether to intervene or not, the most awkward scenario I ever witnessed was a driver telling a woman in an electric wheelchair that he couldn't get out his cab to put the ramp down for her because of health and safety reasons .
That was a good few years ago now though and attitudes seem to have changed a bit thankfully.

I think the big problem here is that the bus driver had decided he wasn't even going to ask the buggy user to move it.

So many parents with pushchairs need to switch their attitudes from 'entitled to the space because they got there first' to being grateful that the efforts of the disability campaigners has the side effect of making their time with children in pushchairs easier than it would otherwise be, and acknowledge that the group who made the changes happen get first dibs on the wheelchair space, no matter who got there first. Same with lifts in shops, a little gratitude for benefitting wouldn't go amiss.

I know that these buses and the extra lifts made the time my children were in pushchairs so much smoother, and although it only actually happened once I would never begrudge getting off a bus for a wheelchair user if necessary.

The short term inconvenience of having a baby or even twins + toddler cannot compare to the long term problems faced by disabled people. I do wonder whether the driver had a way of knowing that the wheelchair user would be able to get on the bus behind (probably a quicker solution than faffing around folding the buggy) but if he didn't know then he was out of order.

I seem to remember someone posting previously saying that her DD was on oxygen and needed to remain in pram/buggy for that reason but got kicked off bus to make way for a man with a broken leg - that's a whole different matter IMO.

KP86

However bad you feel at the end of a day out, waiting for a bus in the rain, you can double that and you might get close to how it feels for a person with a disability.

We travelled on public transport in London for a weekend and thank goodness people (both with and without buggies) were far less selfish. For a seven year old in a wheelchair, in the rain, or wind, I promise you her need is greater than your toddler in their cosy toes and rain cover. We were SO limited in our travel options and even with the best on market options to keep her warm and dry, she is always cold in her chair (plus she hates being in it). We spent the day having to work out where to go to find accessible anything. She had mess she needs to take at certain times which we can't do in public. When she needs to go to the loo, we can't just ask her to wait or stick her in nappies. Our days are planned with military precision around her medical needs. Missing a bus means flagging down a taxi.

Queues are a nightmare because people are generally pretty useless around wheelchairs and will stand with their arses in her face or walk right past her or move her chair to get past, then stand around, in the way whilst the driver puts the ramps out. When on the bus, we need time and space to get her placed properlyand safely - hard to do on a busy bus when people get on before us and there's no seats so they stand around.

By the end of a day, her joints hurt, her legs hurt, she is tired and uncomfortable. We have pushed, pulled and lifted a full grown child around a city and are exhausted mentally and physically. When we get back we have another round of pulling, pushing and lifting to get her bathed and in to bed. All so we can do the same tomorrow, and for so many years ahead.

Wanna swap so you can be at the front of the queue?

The next bus probably had a buggy in the space too.

Most do. So if all drivers are as ineffectual people in wheelchairs could never get on a bus.

Well it seems like a split verdict. I was genuinely interested in what people thought and included the detail about the wheelchair user seemingly being ok as I still am a bit unsure if I was unreasonable. Thank you to the people who replied courteously. I tried being polite to the driver and pointed out to him quite nicely that the wheelchair user should be able to get on. There were no raised voices or cross words from either of us but he did have a good moan at me further down the road. I know it wasn't my battle to fight but I know some wheelchair users and have seen first hand how hard it is getting around this city.

Actually I think yabu.

needascarf that's not what I am saying. Clearly you are surprised wheelchair users are not all incapable of transferring or walking a short distance. Sometimes they just need a bit of help as do mums with pushchairs!

Go easy on the folding wheelchair commenter.

Our girl can sometimes transfer to a seat if needs be, or to our knees for short distances. If there is another wheelchair user needs to get on the bus, we would transfer and fold.

ProudAS we actually have this system up here.
Space was already taken up by a wheelchair and couldn't accept another. Driver got on his radio so the depot could alert the bus behind him.

I think it all depends how assertive the driver is willing to be.

I've seen this before in London; drivers telling wheelchair users that the bus is full. Sometimes it wasn't even pushchairs in the wheelchair space, just people standing with shopping and luggage. I think some of them just can't be arsed to lower the ramp and wait for the wheelchair user to get on and secure themselves.

It almost happened to me when I was in the bus with toddler DS in this buggy, but fortunately I heard the driver telling the wheelchair user at the stop that there wasn't space for them so I jumped up and shouted "yes there is!" and folded.

That's brilliant snowgirl.

Originalfoogirl
OP YANBU

It is brilliant but I repeat, it is at the drivers discretion. Some have been around for years and have no problem telling passengers x needs to go here, could you fold that down please? Or 'sorry I cant take any more prams right now'.
Others are too new/nervous and won't say boo to a goose.

I used to have both kids in a double buggy and always managed to fold down on my own (yes I know I've turned into one of those people and no I don't care ) , seeing the size of some prams and the arguments over spaces these days, I'm so glad my buggy days are over.