Another buggy in wheelchair space thread

[MsAR]

I got on the bus at the same time as a wheelchair user was queuing to do so. The driver told the wheelchair user there wasn't room, so I quickly checked and saw it was a buggy and a shopping trolley in the space.

The driver told the wheelchair user there would be another bus in a few minutes and they didn't seem to mind and weren't particularly insistent about getting on.

Was I being unreasonable to step in at this point and tell the driver that the person with the buggy should get off as wheelchairs have priority? He was pretty annoyed when I did, and kept repeating that there wasn't space.

I'm in London, and there are clear signs on every bus stating this is the case. I've often had to get off a bus when a wheelchair needed to get on and would never question if asked to do so.

Would it also be unreasonable for me to complain to TFL? I know I'm being a busy body but the driver's attitude really irritated me! I'd like the mumsnet jury to help me decide what to do, if anything.

The main problem with all those - on this thread and elsewhere - saying "Oh of course if I need to, if a wheelchair user comes along, of course I'll get off/fold/whatever"

But I've seen what happens in this scenario: I was standing at the back of the bus, it was pouring rain, and the front section and most of the entrance to the bus was occupied by three women with buggies, children in situ. They had been hard to walk past when I'd got on, a few stops earlier, and responded very rudely to my asking them to let me through.

We got to a stop where a man using a wheelchair was waiting. It was still raining heavily. The bus stop was unsheltered. The driver told the man he could only get on if the women moved. They refused. I say refused - actually they were shouting & laughing obscenities at the driver, the other passengers, and the man in the wheelchair. They threatened violence to another passenger who told them that they were in the wheelchair space.

This is the problem - if people fill up the space, it is never available for the actual legal user of the space. And the selfish violent behaviour of the toerags with prams young women added to the desperation of the whole situation. And added to a general sense that selfishness is OK.

As the poster upthread who's a bus driver told us, sometimes drivers want to do something but they can't,because passengers complain -- in this case, these particular passengers threatened violence. It was horrible.

Cross with the wheelchair user?

This is the problem - if people fill up the space, it is never available for the actual legal user of the space.

I was really cross with the wheelchair user that day because they chose to be on that bus stop whereas I didn't. I already had my bus ticket, and yet there I was in the freezing cold. It didn't feel fair.

You do know that "freezing cold" can kill a wheelchair user? Catch a cold, be vulnerable to pneumonia? It's serious stuff. They can't hop from one leg to another, or stamp their feet, or jump up & down to get warm, you know.

I do think unfortunately that the only solution may be at some point to force all prams to fold to get on the bus. It seems a shame but if selfish people are refusing to move or fold then that may be the only way to ensure that wheelchair users are always able to use the space that they are legally entitled to without bus drivers and passengers having to risk being verbally abused and threatened with violence. I think because you are overwhelmingly more likely to see prams in the spaces than wheelchairs they come to be viewed by some as buggy spaces. They are not buggy spaces, I think it's nice that buggy users have been able to benefit from them but if sharing the space with buggy users isn't working then the needs of wheelchair users have to be prioritised.

Am not a parrot, meant to say I agree with that post and that line says it all.

Really cross with the wheelchair user?

Are you fucking kidding me?

I understand that having a baby is daunting and we all feel fragile in the early days.
But honest to God if I thought having a baby would turn me into the type of person who cries because they have to get off a bus I would seriously reconsider whether I was wise to leave the house without a responsible adult.

I get really anxious about this because my baby is in a pram and that would be a logistical NIGHTMARE to collapse. It's a ginormous silver cross so what the hell would I do? Sell your Silver Cross and get a stroller?

I was really cross with the wheelchair user that day because they chose to be on that bus stop whereas I didn't. I already had my bus ticket, and yet there I was in the freezing cold. It didn't feel fair. What a selfish fucker choosing to be a wheelchair at a bus stop.

Yes it's that stupid selfish wheelchair user again.

What did people with pushchairs do before the wheelchair space was available?

This thread has really hardened my position actually. I used to think it worked fine - space has normally not got a wheelchair there so I don't usually need to wake the baby or move my shopping out the basket. If a wheelchair does need the space then I would.

But this thread is full of people saying they wouldn't/ shouldn't have to move. Or move but are cross and crying! I think there probably does need to just be a ban on prams in that space altogether. Why should a wheelchair user have to beg/ bargain for a space? Or feel like an arsehole leaving a woman sobbing at a bus stop. It seems like a complete ban is the only way to ensure people understand that if they cannot/ will not fold or get off they they can't get the bus.

I couldn't drive when I had my first child. I had very little money.
It's a miracle I left the house, went to work, got my baby to nursery.
I'm staggeringly talented.

Who knew?

I always knew.

at Exit

I need to go to bed. This thread is irritating.

I'm always agog by the responses on these threads and, like splendide, feel there needs to be a complete ban on unfolded prams.

'It's not fair . . . .!'

Yeah, well, we have all sorts of regulations in place because some people just cannot do the right thing and behave. That's life.

Having a baby in a pram is not a disability.

I'm in favour of a ban on all unfolded buggies and prams. Then it's clear cut. Like a speed limit or a smoking ban.

I was really cross with the wheelchair user that day because they chose to be on that bus stop whereas I didn't.

Absolute ridiculous and ignorant statement.

Really though you couldn't ban all unfolded buggies unless there was a way to allow children with disabilities to remain in their buggies, if required.

Like most things in life it just boils down to this: don't be a dick.

A pass system for people who need to use a buggy because of disability - either their own or a child's - could be introduced alongside a general ban though. There can be room for some leeway, and that would make it easier for those who really do need the space.

Obviously I mean the wheelchair/Pram issue.

But how would the no-unfolded buggies rule be enforced? I mean, if people won't currently move for the wheelchair even though they are supposed to, what extra authority will the driver have over unfolded buggies?

The law needs to be clear and enforced (don't ask me how...).

I feel certain of one thing: the way to solve this is never going to be by convincing people how much harder life is for a disabled person. As human beings, we do not operate in that way. We don't give all the money in our purse to the homeless person because his/her life is immeasurably worse than ours. Every bus user will not make way for a wheelchair user out of empathy or kindness (some will, happily). It is a law for a good reason; the law should be enough; there should be no "I'm suffering more than you today" - which is not only demeaning for the wheelchair user but also may not always be the case (we can't know everyone's personal situation every day; the law must stand based on all other things being equal, whether they are or not).

But, no, I don't have any solutions, sorry...

Pagwatch me too