Another buggy in wheelchair space thread

[MsAR]

I got on the bus at the same time as a wheelchair user was queuing to do so. The driver told the wheelchair user there wasn't room, so I quickly checked and saw it was a buggy and a shopping trolley in the space.

The driver told the wheelchair user there would be another bus in a few minutes and they didn't seem to mind and weren't particularly insistent about getting on.

Was I being unreasonable to step in at this point and tell the driver that the person with the buggy should get off as wheelchairs have priority? He was pretty annoyed when I did, and kept repeating that there wasn't space.

I'm in London, and there are clear signs on every bus stating this is the case. I've often had to get off a bus when a wheelchair needed to get on and would never question if asked to do so.

Would it also be unreasonable for me to complain to TFL? I know I'm being a busy body but the driver's attitude really irritated me! I'd like the mumsnet jury to help me decide what to do, if anything.

(I thought it was a law, not just a regulation. Am I wrong?

I frequently use a double buggy on the bus and would be in favour of compulsory folding of buggies. If you can afford a monster non-folding pram, you can afford a cheap fully-reclining buggy.

I'm trying, but failing, to understand why anyone would be cross with a wheelchair user for waiting for a bus.

I've read some ridiculous things in my time but that just about takes the fecking biscuit!

I was really cross with the wheelchair user that day because they chose to be on that bus stop whereas I didn't. I already had my bus ticket, and yet there I was in the freezing cold. It didn't feel fair. And I wasn't given the option to fold my buggy as it was too crowded on the bus (Bugaboo Bee, not a giant pram).
Bless you Star. I'm really cross with a wheelchair user most days: me. I'm cross that my legs won't do what I'd like them to do, hold me up longer would be good for a start. I'm cross that I'm in more or less constant pain. I'm cross when my legs go into spasm. I'm cross with my lungs for being floppy, my bladder too. I'm cross that I can only walk with a stick if the weather if above 20. I'm cross that even then, I'll pay for it with severe pain later. If I were kicked off a bus (even if were one that I chose to be on, in the freezing cold, I'd probably be dead, but hey, you're here to tell the tale and do you know what, I'm cross with you too.

(Dawndonna's dd in a mood so forgot to clarify).

I've just read on the citizens advice website that it's not the law, I thought it was but apparently the driver can ask for Prams/buggies to be folded but the parent has every right to refuse
I was convinced it was a legal requirement
I don't see what's wrong with getting a transfer ticket and getting on the next bus if your pram won't fold
Crying because of being at a bus stop in the cold is just bizarre behaviour in my opinion

I'm really sorry for my previous posts. I wrote what I honestly felt at the time, in my ignorance, but I've read more of this thread and have thought a lot about it tonight and I'm sorry for being an offensive idiot. The benefit of threads like this is that it can educate people and change minds for the better I hope. I'm very sorry

'Don't be a dick' should somehow be enforceable.

It does cover most scenarios.

Thank you Starslubs, that's very much appreciated.
Dawndonna's dd.

MN is always a great eye opener Stars

The rules need to be set out clearly and be enforceable. One thing though, if the rules are set out, I hope sn buggies (or buggies used for a disabled child) are given equal right to a space with a wheelchair (on our buses atm they are lower down in priority).

Dawndonna's DD for prime minister.

One other thing that strikes me is that I can be a bit of a wuss about stuff. As in, although it wasn't me who posted about being all upset in the dark after having to get off the bus, that could totally have been me. Food for thought...

Stars it takes a big person to publicly admit they are wrong and apologise. People like you remind me that the world is not a bad place. :)

Stars- always nice to see someone behave so graciously. We all get things wrong sometimes.

What did people with pushchairs do before the wheelchair space was available?

In my case, I walked a LOT. With a baby and a toddler, I used a pram that I could also sit the toddler in when she couldn't walk any further. If we had to go by bus, I swapped to a light umbrella fold pushchair for the baby and reins for the toddler, and put the folded chair into the very limited space available.

But how would the no-unfolded buggies rule be enforced? I mean, if people won't currently move for the wheelchair even though they are supposed to, what extra authority will the driver have over unfolded buggies?

Presumably he just doesn't let them on the bus if the buggy isn't folded. It's easier to do that than to evict someone who has taken root in the wheelchair space.

I've just read on the citizens advice website that it's not the law, I thought it was but apparently the driver can ask for Prams/buggies to be folded but the parent has every right to refuse

I'm not sure that's correct. Bus companies are commercial organisations and can make whatever rules they like so long as they comply with things like equality laws. So they can tell passengers that they don't get on unless the buggy is folded.

I'm trying, but failing, to understand why anyone would be cross with a wheelchair user for waiting for a bus.

Probably because they were selfish and chose the bus stop easiest for them to wheel themselves to rather than one in an area the pram user knew.

I didn't think this thread could get any worse.

Honestly I get being nervous in a place you don't know, my Mil gets panic attacks on buses if it gets diverted, she panics that she won't know where she is. She's anxious in every bus trip, even with her medication. It's awful watching her panic and knowing she won't be calm until she sees her stop and she's off the bus. She made sure that SIL and BIL bought buggies that could be folded easy because there was no way she was going to be using a wheelchair space as there'd be a good chance it would be needed by a wheelchair and the thought of having to get off a bus in a place she didn't know would make her physically vomit.

I was talking to 11 yr old dd about this thread and some if the attitudes on it and she made a good point, that parents who drive still buy pram and pushchairs but they have to buy one that folds and fits into their car, why do people who know they will be using buses not do the same? She asked if they just assume that the wheelchair space is/should be available to them so don't even consider size and folding when buying prams?

She said if there was a deposit for keeping a pram up on a bus, loads of people would fold and not bother, making the space more likely to be empty for the people who it's intended for. So the babies still travel free, and their buggy travels free if folded, but if it's occupying a wheelchair space then they pay a deposit. Anyone who refuses to give the wheelchair space to a wheelchair when they need it, pushchair user loses their money and it's given to the wheelchair user.

I know it's not practical but I was very proud of her way of thinking, and if an 11 year old can see the problem and put some thought in, why are some adults not doing so.

She also said when you say things like you're angry at a wheelchair user because they chose which bus stop they use, you need to stop and think that you also chose to be a parent, you chose to buy/use that pram, you chose to use that bus and you chose to use the wheelchair space. That's it's not the wheelchair users choices that led them to having give a wheelchair space to a wheelchair user. That it's not the wheelchair user you should be angry with.

The more I read the more I'm convinced that the only way to make sure wheelchair users are guaranteed to be able access the wheelchair space is to not allow any pushchairs in it at all. There's no grey areas then, there's no what if baby is sleeping etc etc. Its shit if that's the way it would have to go.

Sorry lots of posts since I started typing my post, I've just seen starslubs apology. (it takes me ages to type, sorry)

So glad starslubs has changed their mind and apologised. It takes character to admit you are wrong. I'm glad you read the thread and saw how hard it is for wheelchair users.

Had a big argument on a fb group this afternoon. Was me against 90% of them. I tried my best. Hopefully it makes someone think. Very frustrating