Another buggy in wheelchair space thread

[MsAR]

I got on the bus at the same time as a wheelchair user was queuing to do so. The driver told the wheelchair user there wasn't room, so I quickly checked and saw it was a buggy and a shopping trolley in the space.

The driver told the wheelchair user there would be another bus in a few minutes and they didn't seem to mind and weren't particularly insistent about getting on.

Was I being unreasonable to step in at this point and tell the driver that the person with the buggy should get off as wheelchairs have priority? He was pretty annoyed when I did, and kept repeating that there wasn't space.

I'm in London, and there are clear signs on every bus stating this is the case. I've often had to get off a bus when a wheelchair needed to get on and would never question if asked to do so.

Would it also be unreasonable for me to complain to TFL? I know I'm being a busy body but the driver's attitude really irritated me! I'd like the mumsnet jury to help me decide what to do, if anything.

Thank you crazypetlady

Lurkedforever1 they'd be outraged of course On account of the spaces being designed specifically for them.
You know, like some do when blue badge holders cant get a bb space and have the audacity to park in the spare P&C spaces. Because they were designed for P&C...

Pre-bookable bus space, WTAF???

So, let's see. Our recent trip to London we had to;

1. Research all accommodation to ensure it would meet our daughter's needs, had to call the chosen hotel to check they could confirm our requirements. Took days to do the research and 30 minutes on the phone.

1. Call Avios to make the plane booking as we need assistance at the airport. 30 minutes on the phone

1. Call the airport to check their policy for security and fast track ( 40 minutes on the phone, still got no answer)

1. Call BMI to change our seat allocation as the website didn't tell us which end of the plane they would board at and wouldn't let me pre book seats in the first four rows without charging me £57 for the privilege. Told to speak to the airline at checkin. 10 minutes trying to find the policy before giving up, 15 minutes on the phone.

1. Argue with the check in lady that no, she can't walk halfway up the plane. Thankfully supervisor overheard and stepped in. Only took 5 minutes (except for the 20 minute queue we wouldn't have had to stand in)

1. Pre- book assistance on the train for transfers to and from the airport 20 minutes on the phone.

1. Pre book all attractions, London eye, Tower of London, tussauds etc to ensure assistance and get a carer ticket. Add in research for policies, trying to find numbers etc, probably about 3 hours in total.

1. Pre-book theatre tickets to get a wheelchair space, total of about two hours to find policies, and 20 minutes on the phone.

1. Have same argument with BA on the same leg home. Far less helpful, took about an hour and still we got to the plane being told she'd be fine in the mid plane seats until the pilot stepped in to get passengers to move.

10. Get letter from GP to hand over at security so we can take her meds through.

Hours and hours in the planning and phoning (mainly non local rate numbers) to book a three day trip to London and now the suggestion we can "simply" pre book bus space. Even if we had a fixed itinerary, there is no way we could have been so prescriptive as to have been able to book a space on the 10.13 nr 76 bus on Saturday morning.

And frankly, why the fekk should we have to? Fold the fekking buggy or get off the fekking bus. It's a wheelchair space and I'm not about to play top trumps with you to decide if your need is greater.😡😡😡

holdhtedoor

baby changing facilities are probably in the disabled loo because its the only unisex facility in the building. Makes sense to me tbh.

Perhaps it make sense to you because you haven't had to wait fifteen minutes for someone to change their baby, oh and have a pee whilst they are in there. If it is the only unisex place, build a separate changing area. If you can't, put baby changing units in both male and female toilets. Probably blocking the last cubicle, plenty of space there to do it, oh but hang on, then people would complain about having to queue to use the unit, or that it was blocking one cubicle. These things are nearly always possible, but people take the lazy quick route because people with a disability just don't have the fight in them.

Headofthehive I've wondered about that. I witnessed it happen once, years ago on a bendy bus in London. Due to some traffic snarl up on the route, which usually ran every 3 minutes or so, there was no bus for about 25 minutes. As you can imagine the bus was extremely busy with passengers packed like sardines, standing in the aisles and wheelchair spaces, when it arrived at the stop where a man in a wheelchair and his carer were waiting. The driver told the man he couldn't board because there wasn't space. The man told the driver to make the passengers standing in one of the wheelchair spaces to get off. The driver said he couldn't do that (at least 10 people would have had to get off, the bus was that packed). In the end, the driver closed the doors and drove off with the man shouting at him.

I have to confess that I didn't offer to get off to make room. In my defense, I was sitting down and not standing in the wheelchair space anyway, and was on my way to catch an expensively pre-booked train up north to a funeral. Due to the delay I was already running the risk of missing it, and certainly would have done if I'd got off the bus.

I still wonder now what would have been the right thing for everyone to do in that situation.

Having read some of the unbelievable posts on this thread I have decided that if I ever find myself in the same position as the OP I will stand at the door with one foot on the bus and one foot off and refuse to move until the disabled person is able to use the space provided for them.

I guess booking a space would only work some times - if you knew for example it was the ten am no 5 bus from so and so. I imagined something as simple as a text to the bus company. I tend to know which bus I am getting on and what time. I'm not in the middle of a city! I am a person that pre books stuff though.

It was just a thought that might help you all! If you knew it was going to be used then you could choose not to get on in the first place rather than have to get off. That applies to standing passengers too. If it is a protected space then no one should be allowed to stand in it - and it should be sectioned off to facilitate this.

Theydidit there are at least 3.

Sorry to spoil your fun

Plus the ones saying they do move but don't see why they should have to

Headofthehive

Setting aside sporadic user issues, you are absolutely right. It should be as simple as a text. But when companies can't do something as simple as having a button on the homepage of their website that takes you straight to their accessibility information, despite having been explicitly asked for it three times and claiming the issue had been passed to their web team (as the SSE Hydro have been asked to) it seems these things are a.ways far from simple!

No apology for length of post

'No wheelchairs should not take priority. Mums with prams can't always fold them and shouldn't have to if the baby is sleeping. When my DS was a newborn I didn't dare take him out on crowded bumpy buses for fear of him being knocked or dropped (especially as I was still weak and tired from the birth). I kept him in his pram. Why should I have to get off the bus when I've waited my turn and paid for my ticket? IMO a wheelchair user is more able to wait for the next bus than a mum with young children.
DS is nearly 1 now but I still wouldn't want to be wrestling with him and shopping and trying to fold pram. Everyone should wait their turn!'

One of THE most disgusting, unsupportive, selfish, entitled, and DISABLIST posts I have EVER seen on mn - you should be utterly ashamed!!!

'How much do your babies pay for their busfare?' - another good point!

SunRoute - how much do you PAY for your child?

'Why shouldn't the mums with babies also choose?'

BECAUSE THEY'RE NOT DISABLED! it's NOT an equal choice, it's NOT true that 'many' wheelchair users could move out the wheelchair SAFELY AND WITHOUT IT CAUSING PAIN. Your ignorance is breathtaking.

Genuine suggestion - when you have a free day (as you will in the relatively near future I'm sure) hire a wheelchair (and donate to a disabled charity) spend a day in a wheelchair, go to shops, hospital, dr, on public transport and see if you still feel the way you do now - because I very much doubt you would.

'And I have as much right to use public transport as the next person.'

NOT in the way you describe if the next person is DISABLED!

' On trains we use the carriage with space for prams/wheelchairs/bikes.'

Oh for the love of god! Again you DON'T have priority on trains either.

'Perhaps it's high time that buggies should be required to be folded before accessing a bus.'

Before the DISABLED campaigned to get these spaces most buses had permanent steps at the entrance and nothing but raised luggage racks for buggies. Also far fewer people drove then - funnily enough we managed!

My mother used large silver cross carriages and walked into town - 45 mins each way. I used to walk (30 mins) into town and back unless awful weather, then I'd fold the buggy. As a nanny/cm on several occasions I managed a bus with twins and a (foldable) twin buggy, I practised loads with the buggy before venturing out.

If you don't collapse your pram or don't get off to let the wheelchair user on, you're a dick. yep! Totally agree

'And if you start with that sort of bullshit: well, shall we ask all the parents with buggies they won't fold, whether their child was conceived from a drunken one-night stand?' Agree with this too!

' If that makes me a twat I don't care.' Delightful attitude

'Some posters on this thread are disgusting.' True and disablist

'What a poor role model' absolutely! Cos they'll be passing these attitudes to their kids!!

'What if your pram doesn't fold? With mine only the frame folds, but the base does not. There is no way I could dismantle it with a newborn inside in only a few minutes. I don't consider using a pram on a bus being an abuser of a wheelchair space, the whole argument is ridiculous. First come, first serve. There are enough buses these days to wait a few minutes for the next one, whether you're in a a wheelchair or pushing a pram.' As has been said REPEATEDLY there ARE buggies suitable for buses, PLUS you could get off - after all you'd only be waiting a few minutes if that's ok for the DISABLED it's certainly ok for an able bodied adult and a baby in a cosy carrycot!

'It's not the wheelchair users fault if you bought a pram that doesn't fold up.' Especially if you KNEW you'd be using buses regularly

'Is this the law everywhere or just London? ' not being a twat to the disabled is law all through uk!

SunRoute I dare you to show your DISABLED and OCCASIONAL (for now) wheelchair using grandma your posts! If I had YOUR attitude my grandmas (one was a wheelchair user in her later years) would rightly have been thoroughly ashamed of me!

In addition NOT all wheelchair users are in your grandmas position of it not causing pain to be moved or CAN move/be moved.

'As a new mum I was dependent on buses for a while...I'd had a traumatic birth, SPD and was in a lot of pain; walking and bending was painful' that should mean you're MORE sympathetic not completely uncaring!

Plus

'I'm not really buying your drip-feed of your difficulties as a new mother, to be honest. If you were that unwell you would have ditched the totally unsuitable pram at the first opportunity, and if you were really in that much difficulty getting to hospital appointments, you would have been able to call on the hospital transport service'

'I'm a driver ( dons hard hat ) and our policy is we always ask the parents if either of them will fold the buggy. We have 2 spaces. If they refuse, we have no way to force them

Good to know' crap does that mean you're gonna be even worse and refuse to move now you know you can't be forced??

The following suggests an entitled cunt yes then?

'If they can safely fold their pram and hold their child on their lap I agree they should do so, but if not I think the person wanting the space should accept it is occupied and wait for the next bus. According to the post upthread, bus-drivers cannot force a parent to fold a pram or leave the bus, suggesting the space is not exclusively for wheelchair users, but for anyone who needs it.' NO IT MEANS entitled arses like you are likely to cause more problems so the bus companies are wimps and give in EVEN THOUGH ITS ILLEGAL!

'What if you have 2 non-walking babies, how are you going to hold onto both of them on your lap? How is that safe? What if the bus brakes suddenly, wouldn't you all end up on the floor?' Done it UMPTEEN times no problem

'the sooner buggy folding becomes mandatory before boarding the bus the better

Which would mean a lot of mothers with newborns or more than one baby would be unable to use buses at all' AGAIN I AND SEVERAL OTHER POSTERS HAVE DONE EXACTLY THIS!

Buses should be accessible to everyone, including mums with prams. NOBODY IS SAYING OTHERWISE

If spaces were pre-bookable, anyone needing a guaranteed space (for wheelchair OR buggy) would then have the option of booking in advance, rather than hoping there is a space available. Like you can on trains. THIS IS ALREADY LIMITING THE ACCESS THE DISABLED HAVE TO TRAINS to apply to buses when it's UNNECESSARY is ludicrous and capitulating to ENTITLED IDIOTS

'Can't hide from disability if it's your life, sadly.' Too true!

'This is so easily solved: no unfolded buggies allowed on.' Yep!

'This is another reason I think we need bus conductors, I wish they'd never done away with those.' Too right! And with the power to throw twats off!

Thetartofasgard while I'm sympathetic to your situation for the majority of parents it IS a choice. For yourself an onward ticket issued by the bus company should be created. But it's still a wheelchair space.

Andrewofgg Sun 05-Jun-16 16:44:10

'>>>> The best might be for the driver to announce that "this bus cannot move until the buggy is folded and space made for the wheelchair" and leave it to public opinion!

Crazypetlady, I ended up having to buy a different buggy too. I think it's a real issue that virtually all prams/buggies claim to be easy to fold, when there's actually a huge variation. I had a Bugaboo Bee, which I chose partly because it's small and claimed to be easy to fold and as a new parent I just believed that was what counted as easy in the pram world. I couldn't believe it when I later discovered the BJCM, which folds with one pull! I don't think I could have managed to fold the bugaboo on the bus and I would have had to get off, luckily I never had to as buses where we are have separate wheelchair and buggy spaces. I only had to fold when the bus was v busy, which fortunately only happened after I discovered the BJCM.

crazypetlady
Thank you!
Dawndonna's dd.

baconyum lots of wheelchair users use a wheelchair for long distances but not for smaller ones. Some prefer to transfer seats at the first opportunity. Ive had many an occasion when moving chairs in a room to allow for a wheelchair as I've seen a person arrive in one....and then see them walk into the room telling me oh I can walk just not that far. I no longer presume anything now but offer assistance if needed. Some want assistance to wheel in, some clearly are offended by the mere suggestion. I ask them, hope I am not presuming or offending and await response!

I'm on London public transport most days with a 10 week old - I absolutely swear by my BJCM. Easy to fold if needed (and I carry a wrap sling in the basket for those times) and narrow enough that it can comfortably go down the aisle on the narrowest buses - C11 etc. I've only once had to share the space with a wheelchair user - she was in a fairly small chair and I was able to fit my buggy in beside her but I was ready to fold in a couple of seconds if needed.

Whilst you are not wrong that the buggy person should have either got off or folded their buggy, I am not sure that you should have been speaking for the person with the wheelchair either. I would have thought that would be quite embarrassing and irritating to have someone sorting it out for them. I think you should have sought their views first before getting involved.

Sounds like the people saying they can't fold are going to be struggling for excuses now - there's even buggy recommendations here so clearly there are buggies that not only fold easily but fit Down aisles.

Headof I'm not currently using a wheelchair myself (but dd and I possibly will need to in the future sadly dd possibly before me).

Thanks for not presuming and aiming to not offend. It's rare as anyone reading the 'second class citizen' thread would see.

Some people are still presuming people in wheel chairs are mentally incapacitated as well.

As it is dd and I get 'tutted' at for being slow getting on buses - that's even when I'm using crutches!

Baconyum

Best post EVER on MN :)

Or does this with a two part buggy fold. I did post it earlier but will repeat here

Those who say their buggies can't fold with seat attachments/carrycots

Why can't you just lift off the seat/carrycot with your child still in it, place it on a seat on the bus and then collapse the buggy.

That's what I did. It was awkward sitting and occasionally I even had to stand up instead but at least a wheelchair could get on

Baconymum . I'm willing to bet certain posters would complain even if wheelchair users were in the space first!

I got on a bus last night and there was an empty buggy in the space, I got them to move it out while I got in then it fit behind me (I go in forwards as I throw up travelling backwards). Next stop another buggy gets on, she walked up to me and said "Don't worry moving I'll just stand by the door". Proves your point exactly I think where she was thinking of asking me to move out of the space for her then saw the look on my face and changed her mind

Nobody is saying Parents cant have those concessions designed for them. They are just saying dont be an entitled twat about it that those who benefit from those concessions should be able to understand how much more a wheelchair user benefits from the concessions designed specifically for them.